The Game Discussion Thread: OPENS NOVEMBER 16

[Tucker Max]

The Game discussion thread.

[Tucker Max]

If you haven't picked up this book, DO IT NOW.

This book is about so much more than picking up women, and I have a lot to say about this. Trust me, this is going to be an awesome review/discussion.

I'm also going to try and get Neil to come participate in the discussion, at least for a little while.

[Tucker Max]

NOTE: These posts are stream of consciousness, off the top of my head, and basically unedited. Do not hold me to my normal level of writing, as that is not the point here, the point is to get my thoughts out in their purest form.

Alright, I am going to start posting my thoughts, comments, etc now, so that when we open the thread on the 16th will have a good head start. Also, I emailed Neil and told him that my full review would be up by the 16th, so that he could see what I said before he joins the discussion.

I have to start with a full disclosure:

Before I read it, I thought this book would suck. I read a few reviews and almost all of them dogged the book (even the review of the book that is on Amazon shits on it). I got the book in mail and I hated it even more based on the cover. A bible? Gimme a fucking break, what kind of tool is this guy?

Part of my hatred was from the fact that I have had a long standing hatred of the self-styled "pickup artist" community--led by David DeAngelo, Ross Jeffries, and all those losers--and I figured that this book would be just another one of those types of dipshits spouting bullshit hustler "game" and exploiting geeky tools who could not figure out the most basic shit on their own. In fact, the only reason I even read the book is because my editor, Jeremie Ruby-Strauss, told me to read it (Neil mentions Jeremie as the guy who started the whole thing, hence the quote in my sig).

Let me publicly state this, for the record:

I was totally wrong. This book is awesome. I loved it, and I highly recommend it to everyone.

Though the book is set in the pickup community, this is not a book about how to pick up girls. At its core, it is a book about how a self-admitted ultimate beta male man learned great game, and how he became the man that he had always wanted to be by conquering that game.

Not only that, but I learned a lot by reading this book. Virtually nothing was about picking up women--please, the pick-up community can't teach me shit about women--but I did learn a lot about the guys that not only teach this stuff, but the ones who go to them to be taught. It is ironic, because the same dudes come to me for help everyday, but I had never got them before. Reading this book enabled me to see the world through a perspective I'd never understood: the uber-geeky beta male mindset.

I also learned a lot about myself. Even though my pick-up skills are awesome, I had never fully considered some of the things that these dudes thought about. So much of what I do is natural, I have never had to systematically break it down, word by word, sentence by sentence. I put up the Breaking Down The Game (http://www.tuckermax.com/archives/entries/breaking_down_the_game.phtml#934) post before I read Neil Strauss's book, but now I am going to have to go back and re-write and expand the whole thing. I thought I was being clear, but now I see that I wasn't at all. It was clear to me; but so many dudes didn't get it and emailed me with follow-up questions that I realized I was doing something wrong even though I couldn't figure out what. This book explained it to me: I have only been looking at the world through my perspective, and I am much more of a natural than I ever realized. More on this in later posts.

I am excited to do a full, almost chapter by chapter review of this book. It is one of the first things I have read in a long time that I truly connected with, learned from, and was moved by.

[Tucker Max]

The second thing I want to say, this is especially for Neil but others should read it also:

Fuck the haters.

I have read a lot of reviews for this book, and most of them were negative. Before I actually read the book I was inclined to agree with them (see the above post), but after reading it, I hated those same reviews. They either misrepresented what Neil was saying, completely missed the point, had an agenda they were pushing, or all of the above.

Don't get me wrong; there are plenty of legit critiques one could make of this book, and even though I loved it overall, I will outline the flaws I found. But what cannot be argued by anyone who knows anything about women, dating, sex, or this culture is that this is real. Most of the reviews I've seen either try to call Neil out on his facts, his stories or his entire perspective. This is total bullshit.

The dude is legit and so is his story. Women are like that. Men are like that. Dating/picking up/hooking up is like that. I do not know him at all and have never met him, but I know this game inside and out, and I can smell a bullshitter a mile away. He is not that; his stories have a ring of truth to them that cannot be faked, and his words have an emotional honesty to them that cannot be engineered. He lived this life and fought these battles, I can tell by his writing because I lived a very similar life and fought in many of the same battles.

I will tell all of you what I told him:


From one master to another: Game respect game. I'd let you be my wingman anytime.

NOTE: If you are a retard like LORELEI and did not read the book, you won't get this quote. It is a reference to the book and the PUA lexicon. This is not how I normally speak/write.

[Tucker Max]

Remember, this is a discussion about the book, not a book review, but since I know way more than most people about this subject, I am going to start off by posting a lot on this. It will help guide the discussion intelligently, but still leave lots to be said by others.


Step 1: Select a Target
-Meet Mystery

I took notes and outlined as I read the book, and my notes at the end of this chappter were pretty fucking prescient, if I do say so myself:


Great intro --> gives the true meaning of the game, all in 7 pages. Charlatans. They don't see it. The game is an process to an end, not an end in itself.

Of course, part of Neil's genius is that by the end of the book he figures this out.


-Meet Style
-The funny thing is, Jeremie Ruby-Strauss is my editor and also sent me The How to Lay Girls Guide. It had the opposite effect on me: I thought it was total shit, written by a poser who had no true understanding of the game or of women and was playing three card Monty with pussy, not truly understanding anything.

-The life he describes in this chapter could not have been more different than mine: He is a total nerd (and I don't mean that in a pejoritive sense), never gets with women, and describes a life where he basically does what he's "supposed" to and never deviates from the prescribed line.

-A quote from this chapter is now my sig, "In the guise of Jeremie Ruby-Strauss and the Internet, god had given me a second chance." Even though we came from totally differnet places in life, this sentence is true for me also. After I turned down like three book offers, it was Jeremie Ruby-Strauss a year later who came to me and made me another book offer. It was for less of an advance than any other house had offered, and he even told me that his publishing house, Kensington, was in most ways a sub-par house. But the fucking dude sold me on him as an editor, and I went with him...thus getting a second chance after I'd spurned the rest of the publishing industry. Kinda funny.

[Tucker Max]

Step 2:
Approach and open

Chapter 1 and 2
-These are both so well written. Neil really flexes his writing muscles here. Sending the email to Mystery, withdrawing the money, the description of Mystery and Sin, Extramask never kissing a girl, Sweater's Sweater. He does a great job setting the scene and investing the reader in the characters. Even though I have no desire to hang out with these people, and even find some distasteful, I still get a great feeling for them as individuals and want to find out what happens next. Aspiring writers would do well to learn from him. He's an excellent writer, different than me in most ways, and better in a lot of those ways.

-I love Mystery's description of the alpha male. It is painfully obvious that he is not one; all he did was watch alpha males and socially deconstruct their behavior. Because of this, he misses the real, true alpha male trait, the one that trumps all the others: True self confidence.

What he is doing is mixing up the cause and the effect. All the attributes he describes (smiling, well-groomed, sense of humor, connecting w/ people, being the center of the room) flow from true self-confidence--they do not create it. Just by acting in a certain way does not make you that way--put a ribbon on a turd and it's still a turd. Mystery doesn't get this because Mystery thinks its all an act. That is why his house of cards eventually collapses in on itself--instead of actually becoming an alpha male, he has tried to socially engineer one. You can't do that. You have to earn it.

A real, genuine, authentic belief in the self comes from within. It comes from achievement, from belief in ones abilities, from doing things you like and becoming a person you are proud of. Everything has to start there.

Granted, Mystery's reverse engineering can have the same temporary effect--by showing these guys the rote step-by-step guide to success and having them pretend, they can derive a sense of confidence, one that has probably escaped them their whole lives. But it is nothing more than a nice house built on a shaky foundation; without a solid base, it will collapse. Which eventually happens to all of these guys. The only ones who seems to escape are the ones who figure out that their house has a shitty foundation, and work to fix that.

The best example, Style (Neil), learns the true meaning of the game and develops true confidence and becomes something of an alpha male in his own right, but only by having to basically start over and build a new house (more on this later).

-Great quote:
As Mystery dissected the alpha male further, I realized something: The reason I was here--the reason Sweater and Extramask were here also--was that our parents and our friends had failed us. They had never given us the tools we needed to become fully social beings.
This sentence utterly dropped me. He nails it. I knew this in an intellectual sense, but not in a truly internalized 'I get it' type of way. I have dozens of guys a week emailing me with what seem like the most basic fucking questions, and it frustrated me so much. Who doesn't know this stuff? Apparently, most guys. This is how this book was most eye-opening to me: It does a great job explaining the mind set and frustrations of the beta male.

-This quote cracked me up. When talking about opening lines:

Sure they weren't that spectacular or sophisticated, but all they are meant to do is get two strangers talking.
He is totally right, and I figured this out on my own years ago. Which is why my friends and I played the pick-up line game and why I wrote in the intro to the Definitive Book of Pick-Up Lines that all the entire book was designed to be was a way to get into a conversation with someone you did not know.

[Tucker Max]

Chapter 3

-I will admit, Mysteries snatch of Scott Baio's girl is kinda cool. I will even go so far as to say that I could not have pulled off the same feat at the same time, not the way he did. There is no question that with the type of girls that he goes for, his approach can work well (but thats no the end of this story--more later). Of course, it is all just a show. He nevers fucks her, which kinda makes the whole exercise pointless, but nonetheless, its fucking cool and I will give him credit.

Chapter 4
-I don't get Neil's thing about not knowing how to kiss a girl. Of course no one ever told you how, and even though they should have, this is one of those things you learn by experience. It's just weird to me that some guys never even attempted it enough to even have an idea about what to do.

Chapter 9
-How fucking greasy and weird is Ross Jeffries? Uh.

[Tucker Max]

Step 3:
Demonstrate Value

Chapter 1
-This Mystery bullshit about two women...I can remember when having a harem was my goal. Then I grew up, figured out that they are all the same, that you can't get validation through them, and that having two of them only doubled the problems that came with one. I wonder if Mystery has figured this out yet. [And seriously--how the fuck does this guy consider himself an expert on women and can't get a threesome? Jesus Christ, that is basic shit for an 'expert.']

-I am not sure when Neil describes Mystery getting caught if he actually cheated or if his girl was just pissed that he was a PUA. If he never cheated, instead just talked to women, then he never did shit wrong. But if he was fucking other girls, then that is fucked up. Having a girlfriend and fuckign around on her does not make you a player, it makes you a liar.

Chapter 2
-Great fucking quote:
I read...My Secret Garden in order to internalize the idea that women actually want sex as much as--if not more than--men; they just don't want to be pressured, lied to, or made to feel like a slut.
Fuck yes. He is 100% right. If you are a male and don't get this yet, read the quote again. Read the book if necessary, he is 100% correct. I have said this 100 times, and will say 100 times again. Understand it.

-In this chapter, he does something everyone should do--he goes out and tries to learn about his world, instead of just relying on what he has been fed by his parents and social group. He has taken the reins and started to really live his life, and part of that is to learn from the wisdom of those who have achieved the things you want to achieve.

-Love him getting the number of the Playmate. It really is that easy guys, hence my Breaking Down the Game post. Granted, I fucked the girl, but I am way ahead of where he was at that point in this life, but the point is the same: It is that easy, it just takes practice and confidence.

Chapter 3
-Extramask is hilarious with the masturbation and pissing stuff. He would fit right in here.
-Neil is starting to see the hustler aspect of the pick-up artist community, I didn't like these forbidden patterns. I got into the game to learn confidence, not mind control.
Chapter 6
-Mystery making Style get a new look is great. All you geeks out there shold take notice: You do not need to be fucking metrosexuals, but you should take some pride in your appearance. Whatever you have, use it. Don't leave anything in the locker room. Great advice.

Chapter 7
-Mystery snagging that Serbian meatheads girl is pretty fucking money. I couldn't have done that.

[Tucker Max]

Chapter 8
-Here he contradicts himself with the whole ADD party girls won't stick around for the routine paragraph. Later in the book he talks about how Mystery starts wearing ridiculous over-the-top outfits to attract these types of girls, and he describes Brittney Spears as that type of girl and totally works her with his routine. But here he says it works on smart girls only?

Look, I have seen this routine in action more than a few times in real life, and in my experience it does not work--at least not really--on smart girls. By that I don't mean academic smart or high IQ smart; it's not about intelligence, its about how world wise the woman is and what she wants (and on the guy who is spitting the game, but more on that later). This is basically a smoke and mirrors routine developed to help guys get a number, which is fine, but in the end--who fucking cares about a number? Unless you actually fuck her, it was basically pointless. Neil even admits this later on when he says he needs to start actually closing deals, and not just getting numbers, and begins to become an alpha male and not just a sarger.

The funny thing is, I usually don't hit on the ADD party girls because of exactly what Neil says. Aside from the fact that these girls are idiots and annoy me, they are only interested in shiny smoke and mirrors bullshit, which is anti-thetical to my game and is exactly what Mysterys game is about (and why I think he starts explicitly going after them later on and why they put that PUA house in LA, where all those girls live).

This being said, I agree that the smarter the girl is, the easier she is to break down, but that is only for somme types of game. It's definitely true for me, but my game is geared towards smart girls--I am smarter and more unique than almost any guy this girl is going to come across and I easily display this (which is one of the keys of game, displaying value). Mystery's game is good at getting the girls attention, no doubt, but that is only the first part of the battle. It's doesn't help you do anything more than number close, which is better than nothing, but still only the beginning. Why do you think that "coffee is only for closers?" After that intro, you have to have something to keep the smart girl interested, or she sees through your shit and moves on.

Beyond this, the pool of girls Neil and Mystery hit on are self selecting to be pre-disposed to his style of game. That is why Mystery takes his boys to places like The Standard and why they lived off Sunset Strip. Truly smart girls tend not to go to those places, mainly because they are infested with idiots. Now, if he is talking about hitting on the smarter girls that are in clubs, then I am with him and agree totally. Some bitches are just brain dead. But if he is saying that wearing eye makup and doing magic tricks at a normal bar is going to break down girls who actually know what they are doing and have had decent game spit at them before, I am calling this as bullshit. If he tried that game in Chicago at the places I go to, the girls would laugh at him. In places like SpyBar or Ontourage, it would work well though.

Chapter 9
-Great, great quote by Neil:
In order to excel at anything, there are always hurdles, obstacles, or challenges one must get past. It's what bodybuilders call the pain period. Those who push themselves, and are willing to face pain, exhaustion, humiliation, rejection, or worse, are the ones who become champions. The rest are left on the sidelines.
That is it folks--the key to success right there. It's not magic. It's just hard work.
-Another great fucking quote:
And that's when I realized the mistake I'd been making my whole life: To get a woman, you have to be willing to lose her.
Preach brother. I have said this 1000x before. DrunkRex has a great quote about it:
Stop CARING what the woman thinks about every word that comes out of your mouth. You care because you do not want to get rejected or look like a chump when they don't buy your game or call BS. Whatever. Who cares? At the end of the night, the handful of girls you talked to that evening will have their lips WRAPPED around somebody's cock and it might as well be yours. Being confident in what you are saying and not caring about the outcome of neither your conversation nor the evening as a whole will make you more attractive most women.

[Tucker Max]

Step 3:
Disarm the obstacles

Chapter 1
-Another great quote:
In life, people tend to wait for good things to come to them. And by waiting, they miss out. Usually, what you wish for doesn't fall into your lapl it falls somewhere nearby, and you have to recognize it, stand up, and put in the time and work it takes to get to it.

Chapter 2
-About Ross Jeffries, "He was clearly a guy who'd been beaten down early in life." I get that feeling about him and I've only seen him on TV. Between that and the sniffing of Carmen Electra's ass, I almost feel bad for that guy. But not really.

Chapter 5
-I have always had a distaste for David DeAngelo, but to be honest, I have read very little of his stuff. I should read more before I make a full commentary.

[Tucker Max]

Step 4:
Isolate the target

Chapter 1
-Another great quote:

For all the self-improvement books I read, I still wasn't above shallow validation seeking. None of us were. That's why we were in the game. Sex wasn't about getting our rocks off; it was about being accepted.

ALL POTENTIAL WRITERS, LISTEN UP: Do you see what he does? Even aside from the fact that he is a very good technical writer, his writing shines and sparkles when he is emotionally honest and raw. He points out all his own flaws, sees his inadequacies, and admits to his weaknesses. It's great, and its the key to great writing.

That being said, I wish I could mock him for this statement, but there is truth in this for all of us who go out to get pussy. Part of the fun and the thrill, part of the reason you do some of the stupid things you do is because of the rush the whole thing gives you. I won't go so far to say that it's not about sex, but that is not what it is all about, he is right.

-Notice this is where Mystery goes overboard with the peacocking, exactly like I said above, and attracts the girls I said he would.

Chapter 6:
-More great quotes. I love Mystery admitting that he doesn't understand women--at least he will admit what he doesn't know. His meet and greet game is effective, no doubt, but the dude still isn't really getting it. This is what I was talking about above. He has only decontructed certain actions that work in certain circumstances, but he doesn't understand the meaning behind them or their broader scope. He isn't an alpha male, he is just an actor playing one, and his game breaks down where the rubber actually meets the road.

Granted, it took me a long time and a lot of pain to understand women, but I get the impression from this book that while Neil eventually figured it out, Mystery still doesn't get it. If he can't get a fucking threesome, how much can he know?

-Great quote about no ugly women, just lazy ones and how that is doubly true for men. Very very true.

-Great Sweater quote about committment. He is right. You have to earn it to get it, and earning it takes committment. I have learned that about the entertainment business, no doubt.

Chapter 7
-Neil basically admits exactly what I just pointed out, when he says that he isn't teaching, he is cloning. This is a huge point; the pickup artist game is a ultimately a scam because it does not teach men the skills they need like Neil says they had not been taught, it teaches them the external actions that embody these skills, without giving them the underlying meaning. Again, it is a house without a foundation. I guess that is better than not having a house at all, but it is not a long term solution to your shelter needs.

-Cracks me up how these guys who are supposed to be experts don't know how to close a deal yet. Granted, there was a time I did not really know that either, but I didn't hold myself out as an expert then. They get numbers left and right, but no pussy.

-I like the observation that Juggler was just a great conversationalist, and not a pickup artist. Makes sense to me and that is probably why I relate to Juggler the most; I have NEVER considered myself a pickup artist and even turned down Maxim last month when they wanted to include something about me in a piece about mPUA's they are doing.

-Love his interaction with Caroline after they fuck. You can see the whole evolution of his game in a microcosm, from the gurus to his own self. He is such a good writer.

Chapter 17
-The quote about seduction being a dark art is good. They temporarily realize the price of this success, and if they'd had a good leader they could have come out of this well, but like Neil says, they had to go through a whole lot more shit to eventually come out the other side. Oh well, I know about having to go through shit to come out clean. Some of us learn the hard way, some the easy way. I took the hard way, and so did these guys.

[Tucker Max]

Step 6:
Create an emotional connection

Chapter 1
-I kinda like how he lays out some of his hook ups. He shows that he has finally learned how to close. Good for him.

Chapter 3
-I totally relate to his frustration with being called the best. I HATE IT when people email me and "just want to watch me work." I am not a fucking clown here for your amusement and I do not go out for anyone but myself, and I hate it when people expect this of me. On one side celebrity--even small celebrity--robs you of so much of your self, all while pumping you up in other areas. It is fucking weird. Celebrity is like death: you cannot understand it until you get there, and once there, you cannot explain it to those who have never been. He is starting to understand that.

-I like how he starts to understand that real game is not about manipulation; it is about being totally honest and finding women who want what you want and whose needs you can meet. Whether those others in the pickup artist community get it or not, he does.

-The part where he writes while fucking the girl...ok, I get it, but that is kinda lame. I'll bet that in a few years he looks back on that and kinda winces (I do the same thing with some of my writing, so I know what its like to wince at stuff now that you thought was cool then).

-His description of game in this chapter is pretty good and recommended reading for anyone who is confused on a basic level, but it's only basic to intermediate game. Any decent player graduates from that quickly (and he does eventually also, to his credit--more on this later).

Chapter 4
-You have no idea how funny this is...I fucked Jackie Kim too. I swear to god, I did...but I'll admit, it was after Maddash (not that I know him or anything, I can figure out the timeline from the book). I may write this story up someday. It's not great of a story, the only thing interesting is the backstory of her email. My roommate at the time knew a friend of hers, I had her set me up because of it, and I closed pretty easily. The funny thing is that I was poor as shit at that point in my life. Just goes to show how irrelevent money is, even to famous gold digging bitches, if you have game.

Chapter 7
-Neil gets it:
In the process of dehumanizing the opposite sex, I had also been dehumanizing myself.
I am not sure how deep to get into this, but he's right. If your goal is just to collect a pussy score, then you will eventually fuck yourself up. If it's not about more than just whoring yourself out to fuck whores, it fucks you up. I am not trying to be a hypocrite about this, I am not angel; I learned that mistake the hard way.

Chapter 10
-AMOGing. I have had the disciples of these guys try to AMOG me before, and I didn't really realize what was going on until I read this book. I will admit that these tactics can work very well...on IDIOTS. I shredded every single one of these guys who tried this shit, mainly because much of my game is verbal wit and incisive put-downs. I won't call myself the best on Earth with verbal sparring, but I am damn good, at the very least a perennial All Star. These dudes just could not compete with me (not many can though). They learned the hard way I was not an AFC.

It was funny too, because you could tell that these dudes had their scripted lines, but as soon as they ran out of those they just kinda stuttered and faltered. They had only memorized lines, they hadn't actually learned how to play the game. The whole give me a fish versus teach me to fish. These dudes had been given fish, but not taught how to fish, and when they came upon a real fisherman, they got hosed.

I would love for one of the mPUA's to try to AMOG me. My guess is that with the types of girls I go for, Mystery would crash and burn, and vice versa, but it might be fun to find out.

[Tucker Max]

Step 7:
Extract to a seduction location

Chapter 1
-This Tom Cruise thing...I could go on for days about this. Very interesting.
-Neil finally understands what the best game is:
I just wanted to walk down the street and say, "Love me, I'm Style!"
He later says that winning the game is leaving the game (which is true), but the best game is when you don't have to run game, when you exclipse routines and formulas, and you become the game (I am kinda getting ahead of the book club---The Book of Five Rings is all about this).

Chapter 1
-He gets it more here:
Sarging is for losers
I am not going to quote the next two paragraphs, but go read them. He figures it out, that the goal of pickup should not be the pickup, that understanding the game is only a means to end, not an end in itself. What you want to build is a lifestyle, a way of living that makes you happy nd gets you what you want. You want to not just remember the right lines to say to a girl, you need to become the person you want to be, the best version of yourself that you can be so that its no longer a game, it is who you are.

And then of course they totally fuck up the application of this principle with Project Hollywood. This is what happens when you have a group of betas and no natural alpha. No leadership = instability and chaos.

Chapter 4
-Let me explain something to you people, something that Neil MUST understand if he works so much with Hollywood types: The EASIEST women on earth to fuck are not protitutes or sorority girls or starving refugee camp victims...they are actresses. Fucking Paris Hilton or Brittney Spears or any of those girls is possibly the easiest shit you can do in Hollywood. Anyone who knows anything about Hollywood will tell you this.

So what happens? The dude gets Paris's number and then doesn't fuck her. If this doesn't summarize these dudes perfectly, I don't know what does.

[Tucker Max]

Step 8:
Pump buying temperature

Chapter 2
-There was a lesson here: The less you appear to be trying, the better you do.
Welcome to my life, brother.

-This whole massage to a threesome thing...I don't know. If it works for him, great, but I do it a different way. I just tell the girls what we are going to do. I don't know--my experience with this is different than most. Nevermind.

Chapter 3
-Being a writer has never gotten you laid? AHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHA. Sorry, had to laugh at that. My experience could not be more opposite.

-What would Tom Cruise do? Wow.

Chapter 4
-They were a perfect pair, each completely unaware of each other. Awesome line, and totally true.

Chapter 6
-The Tyler Durden thing is creepy. This dude is totally fucked up and only motivated by power. These people are always bad news. And I love how the guy gets no ass. So appropriate and true.

Chapter 7
-"Now I looked around the room and saw neediness and hunger and desperation." This is getting sad.

-The Tyler Durden breaking down his mannerisms is exactly what I was telling you about earlier--these guys don't learn, they simply reverse engineer and copy. Sad.

Chapter 12
-He recognizes something that I did, that all PUA's use the same basic techniques, except that those guys explicitly recognize them and name them. That, and since none of them are alphas, the get into/do some fucked up shit, eg, everything revolving around Tyler Durden.

[Tucker Max]

I am going to stop breaking it down by chapter, as the book becomes less interesting on the micro level, and more macro analysis makes sense.

Step 9, and forward:

There was no chain of command or unspoken structure...it was disorder.
Dude, this is because there was not a true alpha in the house, just a bunch of beta's acting like alphas. No foundation, no strength, no leader and no structure. No way you can succeed.

He even says that the house is full of loser guys and no girls. This is not like my house. Or like the houses of any alpha I have ever known. It seems like the only one who is truly learning and getting it is Style, and he is the one who is actually fucking girls. The rest are all about socially engineering and not actually living.

He figures it out more as he sees these fucked up dudes not move forward and achieve what should be the end--women and success--but instead stagnate and turn on themselves. Well, like I said, if you just act it and don't learn it, internalize it and commit to it, you'll never be it.

[Then the book goes into the house politics, Courtney Love and his relationship with Lisa. This is compelling reading, but not as interesting to comment on, at least for me, so I won;t get into it.]

[Tucker Max]

-I like his analysis of the Isabel relationship. How they are just a distraction for each other to avoid loneliness, and how he deals with her being attached. The way he characterizes ultimatums is great, as a way someone use sto exhert influence over a situation they feel they have no control over.

-His description of Lisa is cool:
She lived the advice that most women hypocritically give to men: She wasn't afraid to be herself.
I'll admit, from how he describes her, she sounds pretty fucking cool. I have seen pics of her on the internet, and she is hot too. Good for him.

-The part at the end of page 415 is very prescient, and exactly what I have been talking about, where he describes Mystery crying about not having a Miyagi, and then Neil Strauss says this:
I suppose we are all searching for someone to teach us the moves we needed to win at life, the knightly code of conduct, the ways of the alpha-male. That's why we found each other. But a sequence of manuevers and a system of behavior would never fix what was broken inside. Nothing would fix what was broken inside. All we could do was embrace the damage.

I totally reject that horseshit. I started out just as broken as these dudes did. Most of us do. But if you cannot find someone to teach it to you, someone to help you fix it and learn the game, then learn it yourself. I did it. It can be done.

I know how Mystery felt, crying about not having a Miyagi. We ALL want a Miyagi to lead us, but very few of us are blessed with a role model or authority figure that fills that role. I have spent much of my youth looking for that person in my life, and I never found him. For most of us, he does not exist. That is just the harsh reality of life sometimes.

But it is not the end of the road. I did not get dealt a Miyagi in my life, so I became my own Miyagi. I became the leader I never had. I picked up as much guidance as I could in my life from my godfather and my teachers and coaches, but everything else I had to fill in; I taught myself and guided myself because with or without a Miyagi to guide me, I was determined to reach my goal of becoming the best Tucker Max possible, to figure it out and to win at life.

To me, that is what truly separates me from these pickup artists; not the clothes, the look, the intelligence, the writing ability or even the game. It is nothing else except for one thing: I believed that I could figure it out--that I COULD win at life--and I did it. They did not. Why? Like Neil says, it is not about a system of prescribed actions or memorized routines. It is much harder than that. It is about putting in the work to become who you want to be. It is about being brave enough to live your life for yourself. It is about being willing to accept the risk of failure that comes hand in hand with striving for success. It is about figuring out who you want to be and actually becoming that person, NOT about jsut acting like that person.

I have made many mistakes in my life, gone down many dead ends and followed many false prophets, but all of it was with the ultimate goal of being the very best Tucker Max possible. And though I am not quite there, I am on the right path. If I can do it, so can you can so can the dudes Neil writes about. It is not magic, it is not unreachable...you just have to put in the work.

[To Neil's credit, I think he implicity understands this and is a similar type of person, even if he doesn't out and out say it like I do. Like I said before, I think he gets it.]

[Tucker Max]

The rest of the book just reaffirms this:

-He figures out that Tyler will never be cool because Tyler sees cool and tried to figure it out as a set of behaviors to imitate. Being cool, truly cool, is about being comfortable with who you are. Tyler will never be that because Tyler is not anyone.

-Bottom of 420, Sickboy gets it. He realizes its about becoming who you want to be, not becoming a set of behaviors.

-Not a single woman showed at Papa's birthday. Why? He's not a real person. He may be able to number close Paris Hilton, but he can't get pussy to save his life because there is nothing there but rehearsed lines and no actual game.

-In that interview with Eric Weber, Neil asks about naturals versus guys that need to learn the game analytically. Weber says that naturals have the psychological power to do it, and then he sees himself as a pathetic guy.

Maybe this is where I diverge from those dudes. I have always seen myself as who I wanted to be, regardless of whether I was there yet or not. I have always seen myself as a winner. Maybe the difference is innate. I don't know. I don't think so. I have seen too many guys go from loser to winner. I don't know...my thoughts on this are not totally formed. This book shed a lot of light on things I had not really thought about as much as I thought I had.

NOTE:
These posts are my unedited, totally raw thoughts on this book. If something is unclear or poorly worded, it is because this has been just put down and not revised. But it's a great starting point. This is where my evolution as a writer is going--towards figuring this stuff out. This book raised some fundamental and important questions about the nature of manhood, success, and achievement as defined in our modern times. I don't know the answers right now, but I feel like I am close. Its there, jumbled and distorted, floating around as random thoughts and observations, waiting to be synthesized. I just have to get it out.


I will open this thread at about 8am, CST. Mods if it is not open by then, please open it for me.

[mrjake]

I will open this thread at about 8am, CST. Mods if it is not open by then, please open it for me.Opened as instructed...

[JonoJohnson]

Tucker, great synopsis of the book...
I bought the book about 2 weeks ago, and finished it in about a week, it wasnt hard since it was about a topic I love... women...
Anyway, I think the house w/o a foundation comparison sums it up great, you can tell these guys were fakes and "robots", as Style called 'em almost from the start, when you start to see what their sarging game was all about.
When I'd finish reading for the night, I'd close the book and just think to myself, wait, these guys all seem like the biggest losers! They keep walking past eachother giving high fives at the bar after openining a set! how lame

I think there is a ton of good stuff in the book from openings and approaches to just learning about women and yourself. The NLP shit is kinda weird to me, I had never even heard of it before the book. Hypnosis? cmon...really?

I dont have any quotes to reference b/c Im writing/reading this at work, but I liked the part at Mansion in South Beach when Style steps to the 10 and the 11 and gets the 11 goin crazy and horny for him, but not only that, how he explains how ridiculously nervous he was, but fought it off and portrayed his very high confidence.... I also liked the competition w/ Heidi Fleiss, I could easily picture that seen.

Also, when Tucker said above how actresses/hollywood types are easy to score with.. I've never spit game on one, but you can see how in the book Paris was so into what Papa was saying (when they described him, he sounded like an asian dorky small guy) and how Brittney ate up all the BS Neil threw at her. I know Neil was in a more authoratative position, but still, you can see how they almost wanted to be treated like a regular (stupid) girl... even if just for those 5 minutes

In going out in NYC since I finished the book I've tried to use some of the "tips" Ive picked up from the book, not in the robotic "i'm a clone" way these guys did...some worked, some didn't. I feel like if I incorporated some of what I learned with my game I already had, I could have a good thing going.

The whole idea of Project Hollywood was a great one, like a frat house for post college guys who wanna meet women (of course doing any more than a number close for most of these guys was as easy as running a 4 minute mile)
Atthe same time, it was destined to fail, b/c all these guys werent really friends, they were brought together b/c they all felt inadequate in some way about their confidence and with women. A house where everyone seems to form cliques, when there are 10-30 people living there w/ tension always in the air can not work. In the end, it seemed like a frat house, trashed and torn apart, no one really liked anyone else and there was Style, in the middle, still pulling tail and trying to be peacemaker, until they finally turned on him.
Also, Courtney Love was a good part of the book, shes all over the place, her character was a nice suprise... and wound up being amazing for Neil, b/c she brought Lisa to him... and like he says, he was able to "stand up, and put in the time and work it takes to get to it. "... and he got her... I recently read in Page 6 (NY Post) that they are getting engaged any minute basically.

Understanding women could be the hardest thing to do, but if you wanna have any success in the game, and in relationships as well, its a skill you really need. They make it hard b/c alot of women barely know themselves and alot of the time know what they dont want as opposed to what they do want, but thats on them... I still love women... all of you... ok most of you..

[spesh]

Great book. I initially though it would be some shithouse guide on how to become a PUA, and I resisted buying it for this reason. I'm glad I bought it now. Essentially I took a couple of main points from it:

- Imitation can only get you so far. You can deconstruct the behavioural patterns of an alpha male, but by merely watching and copying all you're going to end up with is a set of routines and bullshit patterns. Once you've used them up, you're back to the same old fucking tool you were before.

- There seemed to be a continual theme of 'the natural' versus 'the AFC'. What shines through is that no matter how much you try to act like an alpha male, unless you can find the self-confidence within you, you're always going to be the AFC.

- Most of the 'pick-up artist society' is fucking weird and lame. So much emphasis was placed on number-closing and kiss-closing - those are fucking stupid. Whats so great about going that far? Tyler Durden reveals himself as a creepy, mechanical robot, deconstructing and engineering and fighting for power - deserving that he is the one getting no ass.

- Ross Jefferies, DeAngelo and co. come off as greasy, loser wannabes. I'm not sure if Neil wanted to give this impression, but that's sure as hell the impression I got. Jefferies in particular. After reading the part on how he behaved at the celebrity, I initially felt sorry for the guy. Then I laughed at his position, and then the laughter gave way to a deep-seated dislike.

- One of the only people that got anything meaningful out of the process was Neil (along with Sickboy). He seems to be able to cut through the bullshit and focuses on being what he wants to be, not what the patterns and routines dictate he should be. The ones hiding behind the routines (eg: Tyler) are the ones getting fuck all action.

- The routines may work on retarded club whores, but any woman with decent life experience can cut through the smoke screen and call your bullshit. I'm not sure about other people, but these women are the ones I'd rather hook-up with. Once your bullshit is called and your routines are all used up, if you're a loser underneath it that will show through.

- AMOGing. Everyone's come across the fucking tools that do this shit. Patterns and routines will do fuck all if the person you're using them on has enough self-confidence to handle themselves verbally.

- Most of the techniques used by the PUA's seem to be imitating one quality - being a good conversationalist. If you have enough confidence to say whatever you want to, you're already a leap ahead of the PUA society.

- Being a natural can't be taught through a series of routines and rehearsed behaviour. It develops within you through experience and reflection.

Anyway, thats what I got out of the book. There were times long before reading this when I though it would be cool to become one of the guys Neil learns from in this book. Reading this makes me so god-damn glad I never didt. I'd probably still be lost in the wilderness to this day.

[Spyder281]

One of the reasons I became a writer is that, unlike starting a band, directing movies, or acting in a theatrical production, you can do it alone. Your success and failure depend entirely on yourself. I've never trusted collaborations, because most people in this world are not closers. They don't finish what they start; they don't live what they dream; they sabotage their own progress because they're afraid they won't find what they seek.

This was my favorite quote of the book. It pretty much sums up every character in the book with the exception of Strauss (and maybe Juggler). I also thought is was a great observation of most people you come across in life.

[Faraday]

I have a confession to make: I too, used to be part of the pick-up artist community.

I read “The Game” in one, long marathon night/early morning. There are various reasons why it kept my attention for so long, such as the story, his writing style, and the drama. However, the main reason why I couldn’t put the book down is because my life is very similar to Style’s.

I was introduced to the pick-up artists’ internet community about the same time Strauss met Mystery. I remember many of the posts that Strauss excerpts in his book because I read them when they first hit the internet. I recall reading about the competing pick-up methods and even picked up copies of David DeAngelo’s e-book and “Advanced Dating Techniques” CD seminar.

Back in 2002, I was lonely, inexperienced, and didn’t understand why I couldn’t get laid despite my best efforts. My entire life, I’d been the type of person who did exactly what I was supposed to do. I didn’t realize this at the time, but I was a clone, with no personality of my own. I lived my life by following and mimicking others. I also suffered from crippling insecurity and was ridiculously desperate, so of course, I couldn’t get laid at all.

I had just been dumped by a nice girl that I’d scared off because I’d been too timid and needy and entered into a state of depression. A friend called me up and told me about www.fastseduction.com, the PUA site moderated by Formhandle. Like many of the “beta males” I thought I had found the holy grail for pussy. I tried every hairbrained idea I read on the forum, and probably scared a lot of women away in the process. I religiously read the posts by Style, Mystery, Tyler Durden, and Papa, thinking that they are the gurus that could finally save me from my loneliness.

I found a group of friends who also read and posted on the forums and we spent hours talking about the latest techniques. I finally realized one that I was getting nowhere. Despite all my forum-reading and discussion, I wasn’t getting laid and while some of the techniques worked to a certain extent, I would be lost when I ran out of material. I also started thinking that Tyler Durden was some kind of small-dicked overcompensator who was trying to make this stuff too hard.

I left the forums around the time when Style posted his famous “are you becoming a social robot” post. I realized exactly what Style did, while the goal of all this PUA stuff was women, I just spent more time around beta males. I finally woke up, turned off the computer, and started taking steps towards getting a fucking life. I started doing things that interested me, not because they were supposed to be cool. I found people that I actually enjoyed hanging out with. I started feeling comfortable in my own skin and then the women started appearing. Only recently (and I mean, just in the last two months), I’ve finally started dating the type of women I’ve always wanted: hot, witty, and educated.

I highly recommend this book because Strauss shows that only you can find your own way to happiness, women, whatever. People who are looking for a guaranteed result from some flowchart-like techniques are too insecure to live life on their own.

[Shrynn]

Style's realization that everyone is looking to the outside for something to fill a void in their lives when they should be looking to the inside was a great moment for me in the book.

Also when he's out surfing with Lisa and Herbal, he thinks to himself how he's always thought that the guys hang way out in the deep waters fighting for the biggest waves were chumps because he was in closer getting lots of waves. Then he almost realizes that he's envious of them and decides to catch a big wave. Now he's hooked, Lisa is that Monster wave for him and the work that it takes to conquor that obstacle will make the victory all that more sweet.

Great quote for me was near the end of Style's stay at Project Hollywood, when Tyler asks Style what enables him to get Lisa, he says:
I go out every night and work so hard on myself, and I know that I couldn't get her as a girlfriend.

Style Responds:
I guess I have Life Experience. All you do is Sarge every night. You're only working one aspect of yourself. It's like going to the gym everyday and just doing bicep curls.

Tyler will always be a loser cause he just doesn't get it. Quite frankly I don't understand why they allowed him to be anywhere near them. From the very first meeting they say that he didn't treat them like human beings, he'd just say "run the jealous girlfriend routine on that girl". No one wants to be treated like that. Just like Tucker says, "I'm not a fucking circus clown here for your amusement!"

[RyanJM]

Awesome book. I couldn't put it down and read the entire thing in one long, unhealthy sitting.

I agreed with a lot of the good quotes Max pulled out, but his perspective on other things is somewhat skewed. The whole point of the PUA material is to get a guy who hasn't had much interaction with females into a conversation that doesn't get stale after 30 seconds. If you are a "beta" male that watches a lot of TV, plays lots of video/computer games, and works as a computer programmer, what kind of cool stories could you possibly have to talk about? Both Strauss and Max have said that a big part of attracting women is being a good storyteller. With that in mind, we're generally not dealing with people who were highschool athletes and scholarship students at Duke who went out on drunken rampages every weekend. These guys don't have much to talk about that would interest a girl, so they need these scripted things to say that will get them talking about something that will interest a girl. Where you go from there is up to you, but at the very least they will develop the confidence to approach a girl.

The type of inner game that you are talking about is only achievable if the guy has something going for him that he can be proud of. The average joe doesn't have ad money coming in from a famous website and books out on storeshelves. These people come to the PUA community because they need something to get them into the game. Shit, they wouldn't even know what "inner game" is w/o reading some of this material.

I completely agree that a lot of the guys in this book had other issues that needed to be dealt with that caused massive problems, but some of them took the useful stuff they learned and moved on. Neil even admits that he wouldn't have had the skill to pickup a girl like Lisa without first having gone through the experience of trying to pickup many women. I'm sure it took Max more than a year and a half to get his game to the level that Neil had by the end of his research. And that says something to me about the real value of some of the techniques used. Not just the routines, but the underlying concepts of how to develop attraction etc... because if that type of change can happen in a year, then he must have been learning something that helped him faster than the trial and error that "naturals" use to develop their game.

[Urquell]

I just got this last night after I got home, and after reading the first couple of chapters, I am waiting anxiously until my next opportunity to spend some QT with this book. He is a damned fine writer and unfortunately shows me that my own execution of pen to paper does not even approach his level. His ability to link thoughts clearly and get the reader actively engaged in his story lines is impressive.

Bear with me on this: Regardless of the actual truth, Neil had two options for writing step 2 chapter 1 chapter:

1. Like many introspective books I have read, he could have fessed to the reader that his publisher was paying the $500 for the training session, and that he was going on Mystery's training workshop and future infiltrations into the PUA world as a reporter after a story, deflecting the shame or admitting he personally paid, or...

2. Rest the burden of defeat and inadequecy solely upon his own shoulders and write the story as an individual involved in this world only interested in his own self-improvement...

Whether the actual truth is closer to #1 or #2? I DON'T CARE! How Neil wrote it is the most fascinating and interesting way possible, and I feel that even though this book can be introspective and informational, it is written as an adventure, and should be enjoyed as such.

P.S. A freakin' quasi-bible??? I love it! Well, at least the audaciousness it took to make it. How much mulah did they spend on the gilt-edges of this book???

[Slutcakes]

Its no secret that in American society today, only 10% of the men fuck 90% of the women and that most guys struggle to learn how to become part of that elite category.

-These are men that have been brainwashed by the media and politics to think that men should chase women
-These are guys who buy into the Disney fantasy that they will find Ms. Right by chance and live happily ever after
-These are men who are brainwashed by feminism to believe there are no inherent differences between the sexes.
-These are the guys that put women on pedestals just for having a breasts and a vagina.
-These are the men that give up all hope and become desperate, and supplicate to gain a woman’s approval.
-These are the ones who do anything to get a girl and then become their personal doormat, wasting time and money and even worse, losing self-respect and dignity.
-These are the guys who take “Just Be Yourself” seriously from friends and family.

This book is going to shed much new light on this 90% bracket that has been led down the wrong path. There is a plethora of golden advice presented by Neil in this book to help guys to unravel the layers of social programming already embedded in their brains and finally create and develop an identity for themselves.

Unfortunately, many idiots will be memorizing the cookie cutter lines, which may lead to a few lays for them, but in the end it won't fill any voids missing or give them the validation they were seeking. However, for those who “get it” and learn through Neil's experiences with the game, this book will provide some basic guidelines on how to really find out who you are, what you want out of life, and how to achieve it.

[Profil]

I´m probaly younger then most in here so take it for what is is.

This book opened up my eyes. I read this book, in a period of my life where I saw it clear that a quick fix won't come, shyness isn't an excuse.
I'm raised in a family with 4 sister and a mom, the father wasn't never really there, I just saw him every other weekend. Because of this, I can understand what it's like for the guys that came to learn from the mPUA's and the seeking for validation. I understand why they saw Neil as a 'god', to be honest, I've would have probaly done that too.
But as Tucker said, it's just a shallow surface of lines and what else, and as you go deep, there's nothing more then a surface, many of them have just their lines, and not the confidence that it is what they should be looking for. But I guess they saw the 'lines' as confidence and couldn't see why they never would never close.
My favorite character is probaly Extramask, I like his sense of humor.
I'll probaly add more later as this discussion goes along because this wasn't much at all.

I have some soundfiles when Extramask and Mystery is talking (not to each other). If anyone wants it, I can try to find a host for them.

[KillaCam2]

I had kind of a roller coaster relationship with this book. I was literally excited the day it came in the mail. I ran the amazon box into my room, opened it up, took the book out, and looked at the red satin string hanging out of the bottom. My exact first thoughts: "Fuck, I just got ripped off, this book is going to be gay"

After reading the first few chapters, I forgot all about the fact that I was reading from a fake bible (though I still hid it from sight to avoid being chastised by my roommates). The writing was VERY good, and the subject matter couldn't have been more relevant to me (and I'm sure many others on this board).

Then I got a little further into the book. I felt duped, like this shit was fake. I put the book down, went online, and googled a few things, just to make certain that this was all just a fairytale. To my disbelief, the pick up techniques (including fucking magic tricks and fake names) and gurus did exist. My faith in the book was once again restored, though my faith in mankind was now relying on a feeding tube.

In the end, I liked the book for all of the reasons other posters have listed, and think more than anything, it was a perfect selection for TMMB. Looking forward to breaking this thing down.

[Tucker Max]

I have to run for now, but if "Style" posts, that is actually Neil Strauss, so don't be a fucking dick to him. I set him up with an account, I don't know if he will post or not, I guess we'll see.

OK, I just talked to Neil, he is definitely going to stop by and post sometime today or tomorrow.

[pyram]

Tucker I have a question, and maybe I missed it? But do you find any similar things happen to you in what Style and the rest of the PUA's did when learnign from Mystery? Do you find people do things to be just like you because they view you as the best way to get pussy, and in basically beome social robots of you? Or is it not extreme with you or have you not given it any thought?

[NAJ]

I went into the local Barnes and Noble to pick this book up. The looks I got from the lady at the checkout were hilarious. I, like Tucker, have always looked at myself in the winner category and to be buying a book that presumably was a how to pick up chicks book was a little out of place. The reviews, the lady at Barnes and Noble, and I could not have been more wrong about this book.

At first glance my copy of this book appears like a bible. Black leather cover with gold edged pages. It gives the appearance of a guide, the ultimate guide, to picking up girls. Everyone was judging this book by its cover. Once I finished the book, I had an interesting discussion with a FB who saw it sitting on my nightstand. She looked at the book like most people do and gave me the look of disapproval, possibly because she was wondering if I had used something in it to get her into bed. I explained to her what the book is really about and she then made the comment, "I guess I shouldn't judge a book by its cover." I just chuckled and said this book is more about that statement than it appears. Guys can learn a lot from this book; hell, an open minded girl can learn a lot from this book. It really doesn't matter what you look like, it is what you do with what you have. And this book does a lot with what it has.

I can relate to Neil in a lot of ways. He was ultimately looking for the same thing before he got involved with the PUAs as he was when he met Lisa. I am a one woman kind of guy. Before college I was pretty sure about it but after a failed long term relationship I went out and test drove a ton of women. I learned more about myself than I ever thought I would. I learned, without realizing it initially, that I new what I wanted to begin with I just didn't know how to accomplish it. My experiences then and even now help me to gain what I want out of life and I am by no means complete but I feel like I have more knowledge than I did when I started. I learned to recognize the things I did and when they worked, both in professional and personal applications. We all go on a quest in life to find out who we really are. Some of us take very different paths, some of us fail hundreds of times, some of us never do find our way but this book is about a man finding himself.

I have recommended this book to so many people and every time they look at me funny. I just tell them don't judge a book by its cover.

[Swa Charley]

While De Angelo is pretty scummy, hes pretty smart as a busisinessman he must be making a fortune off this

[wojtek]

I wrote this last night, before the thread opened. Forgive me of parts have already been said.

Tucker hit the nail right on with his description of this book.
First off, I'd like to say I completely disagree with Tuckers opinion
of the book binding. I would have liked the publisher to kill off the female
sillouettes, and the subtitle though. This book isn't about women.

The book is all about Neil turning himself into an alpha male.
Why was Neil the only one able to do it? Probably because
he was the only one introspective enough to take a step back and look
at what everyone was doing. He had gained the social/technical
skills to pick up women, then was willing to throw it all away.

A point about the cloning behaviour. I think this is what made it possible
for the author to make that beta->alpha transition. But it's also what held
the rest of the people in the house back. Those learned behaviours put Neil
into situations where he could gain confidence and become alpha and he took
full advantage of that in the end. While the others went back to their
rooms and studies how to tweak and improve things. They never looked at themselves.

A nice analogy would be to learning a technical sport: Snowboarding, skiing,
skydiving, etc. You always start out with overegagerated positions in order
to teach your body the correct thing to do. Over time, your body forgets the exageration, and only does what it needs to. All the kids, excepting Neil
are still exagerating and snowplowing down the kiddy hill. Neil gets his shit
and starts moving up the more advanced hills.

I'm really not sure what else there is to add to this book. Except perhaps
sell it less on the Pick up artist side of things. This book will sit on my
bookshelf besides the drucker and knuth without shame.

[Tucker Max]

The type of inner game that you are talking about is only achievable if the guy has something going for him that he can be proud of. The average joe doesn't have ad money coming in from a famous website and books out on storeshelves. These people come to the PUA community because they need something to get them into the game. Shit, they wouldn't even know what "inner game" is w/o reading some of this material.

You are totally missing my point. Dude, I was "Tucker Max" way before TuckerMax.com ever existed. I had inner game before I ever had money or fame. All this shit you see here CAME FROM the fact I had inner game, not the other way around. You are doing the same thing Mystery does; you're putting the cart before the horse.

I agree that these guys need something to get them into the game, but the PUA community is ultimately selling snake oil. A routine to open a set is not an answer. Neil figures this out. But he did not learn it from the PUA community, he learned it from living life, from reading the experiences of others and by learning from his and others mistakes. PUA did not teach it to him.

[McCock]

In a lot of ways, the struggles of men today stem back from a point made in Fight Club. "A generation of men raised by women." Ultimately, the pickup community and a fight club try to acheive the same end result. Get back to what made us men in the first place. Fighting and fucking.

The problem with being raised by women is that they teach you to do the "right" things like buy flowers, pay for dates, treat her like queen, etc. While this may seem like a logical choice, it's counterintuitive to the whole dating process. This often times takes a lot of deprogramming because you're conditioned at such a young age. Being the nice guy won't score you the chicks. My mother taught me to become a good husband. To avoid being the kind of men she dated the past.

Although I grew up with my father for all of my childhood, he never really sat me down and said, "Son, this is how it's done."

I was part of the PU community for about 1 1/2 years until I realized it was too time consuming, and I had already had the tools I need for success. Great confidence and a good sense of humor. I did learn a lot through Mystery, David Deangelo, Swinggcat, and Gunwitch. Luckily, I never paid a dime for it. I feel bad for the guys who do. I became too focussed on the formula itself and not the end result. For that reason, I decided that my real life friends were much more important than faceless guys on mASF talking about theories. I stopped reading Thundercat Seduction Lair, David Deangelo's weekly newsletters, and got back to being me. Women are a part of my life, but they do not define it.

[Tucker Max]

Tucker I have a question, and maybe I missed it? But do you find any similar things happen to you in what Style and the rest of the PUA's did when learnign from Mystery? Do you find people do things to be just like you because they view you as the best way to get pussy, and in basically beome social robots of you? Or is it not extreme with you or have you not given it any thought?

Yeah, I mean some people imitate me to try to be me, of course, but everything I say and preach tries to prevent that. I tell people to not be me, but rather to be the best versions of themselves possible.

[drinkupjohnny]

I too was amazed by the negative reviews. How anyone who reviews books for a living could not at the very least be entertained by it is a mystery. It is beyond entertaining. It is filled with insight after insight into human behavior. I guess many book reviewers are clueless when it comes to social interaction, so they didn't get it.

So, thank you Tucker for recommending this book! When I was young, I was very shy, so I really related to Neil and his journey. I never got past beginning-level game when I was single, so I am somewhat envious of Style and Tucker. I didn't get to learn from mistakes such as fucking porn stars in bathrooms, or dating hordes of hot psychotic bitches. Those things actually sound somewhat appealing, but this book actually made me happier than ever to be settled down. I've got a great life with a great girl/job/condo/friends/family and all that sarging sounds like a lot of work to me.

By the way, Neil's book on Motley Crüe (The Dirt) is also very entertaining. It won't give you much insight into the human condition, but it does demonstrate that it is possible to order pizza from a phone that is jammed up a groupies' pussy.

[RyanJM]

You are totally missing my point. Dude, I was "Tucker Max" way before TuckerMax.com ever existed. I had inner game before I ever had money or fame. All this shit you see here CAME FROM the fact I had inner game, not the other way around. You are doing the same thing Mystery does; you're putting the cart before the horse.

In another part of that post I talked about storytelling and accomplishments early in life. You had earlier childhood experiences that built the foundation of your confidence. Achievements in sports, scholarships, etc... are things you can draw from. What can these people use for confidence when they don't have these childhood experiences to draw from? I don't see how you can go from introverted and shy to supreme confidence in your early-mid twenties without getting some quick, positive results with women. And that's what the PUA stuff is supposed to do.

Like I said before, I completely agree that having confidence FIRST and then letting your game flow from that is the best way, but if it's a choice between a shitty foundation and a lean-to in the woods, I'll take the shitty foundation every time and work on it later. Shit, that's basically what Neil did himself. You can't tell me that he would have achieved the understanding he ultimately came to without going through the experience that he did. It just wouldn't have happened.

*edit* I didn't read any reviews except for the 4 1/2 star rating on Amazon. That's a pretty damn good rating, plus it's like #50 in sales ranking for books overall.

[Tucker Max]

Like I said before, I completely agree that having confidence FIRST and then letting your game flow from that is the best way, but if it's a choice between a shitty foundation and a lean-to in the woods, I'll take the shitty foundation every time and work on it later. Shit, that's basically what Neil did himself. You can't tell me that he would have achieved the understanding he ultimately came to without going through the experience that he did. It just wouldn't have happened.

We aren't really disagreeing; I admit this in one of my posts that a bad foundation is better than no house at all, but I say that it is only a temporary solution. You have to eventually start again and build another house with a good foundation. Neil did this, but yes I agree, you have to start somewhere. I simply think that there are better places to start.

That being said, I am not currently offering another complrehensive alternative to the PUA community. My thought on this are not collected and synthesized the way that theirs are. This is true.

[JonoJohnson]

Bottom line is, the book is a great read... very entertaining.. yeah, you can learn a thing or 2, but anyone looking at it as a guide to get pussy is an idiot. If you already have your foundation and pick up some shit, cool... thats how im looking at it... i also think the glossary is hilarious... i like the 1 word (sometimes 2) nick names... i also liked the tell a girl "you inspired me to create art, can i draw you?" then you draw a stick figure titled "semi attractive girl in bar/coffee shop/etc" that was hilarious
I've recommended this book to all my friends, some of which decided to pick up the book and all the "gurus" Ross Jeffries, DeAngelo,etc... thses guys might be awkward dorks who are trying so hard to be something theyre not, but they managed to make money by fooling other dorks like them who were even more desperate for answers- Jeffries seemed the worst of them all, who sticks their nose in carmen electra's ass? no wonder he still lived w/ his parents (it seemed like it in the book)

When reading the book, I def thought of similarities between Style and Tucker.. Tucker seems more of a natural, but I have no idea how Tucker was when his adventures started, Style let us in on how he was...

Tucker hows NYC/NJ? I live in Murray hill (east 30s), plenty of hot little targets around here

[McCock]

Here are some pictures of many of the characters taken a little over a year ago at a David Deangelo "Double Your Dating" seminar. I got all of these off Thundercat's Seduction Lair.

David Deangelo (http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/images/davidd.jpg)

Herbal T and Cliff (http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/images/Herbal-and-cliff.jpg)

Mystery (http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/images/mystery.jpg)

Rick H (http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/images/rickh.jpg)

Hynoptica and Steve Piccus (http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/images/hyp-and-steve.jpg)

Papa (http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/images/papa.jpg)

The One and Dreamweaver (http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/images/topgun.jpg)

The One, Tyler Durden, Twenty-six (http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/images/rsd2.jpg)

[Tucker Max]

Here are some pictures of many of the characters taken a little over a year ago at a David Deangelo "Double Your Dating" seminar. I got all of these off Thundercat's Seduction Lair.

Oh man, I cannot stop laughing. I had no idea how right I was about these guys. This is awesome.

[JonoJohnson]

[QUOTE=McCock]Here are some pictures of many of the characters taken a little over a year ago at a David Deangelo "Double Your Dating" seminar. I got all of these off Thundercat's Seduction Lair.


RIDIIIIIIC!! these are the most herbed out looking guys around.. Papa pimped Paris?! jeez... i knew they were geeks from reading, but the pictures are hilarious

[Pilavas]

The book is all about Neil turning himself into an alpha male.

Like others have mentioned, I don't think this was the ultimate point of the book. I get your point but, in the end, Neil's ability to have the confidence to be himself is what brought him success. One of the funniest parts of the book was how few of these self-styled alpha males were actually getting laid. I think Style's success derived from his ability to utilize his inherent wit, intelligence and verbal skills to take his game to the next level. He incorporated all of the gimmicks of the PUA as a crutch to pick up his confidence (something that was very obviously lacking), whereas most of the other students were using those same techniques strictly as a means to an end. For them (and Mystery I suppose), it was the whole cart-before-the-horse thing that Tucker mentioned earlier. Granted, I've never really understood the whole alpha/beta obsession anyways so I could be wrong here. I don't know if Neil would consider himself as an alpha male now or not. My guess is that he wouldn't care what designation he fell under.

I'm really thankful that this book had the "search inside..." feature on Amazon. I wasn't going to buy it based on the reviews on the site, especially the signature review from Publishers Weekly. (The fact that the review is from a sex columnist is both telling and hilarious once you actually read the book.) All it took was a quick reading of the excerpt on the site to know that this was going to be a great book.

[nomembername]

I agree that these guys need something to get them into the game, but the PUA community is ultimately selling snake oil. A routine to open a set is not an answer. Neil figures this out. But he did not learn it from the PUA community, he learned it from living life, from reading the experiences of others and by learning from his and others mistakes. PUA did not teach it to him.

I agree with RyanJM. What these guys are selling is a foot in the door to gaining self confidence. What better way to gain confidence in who you are than by number closing a hot girl? For guys like Style, Sweater and other betas who never caught looks from women or received validation when they were young that helped breed confidence, the pua community was giving them steps to prove wrong the conventional wisdom that you have to be the best looking, and/or richest get the girl. I believe this is a great way to develop the alpha male that lies within.

Conclusion: I think the pua community can be the answer. Just so long as it's used to develop the best You you can be.

Where this whole exercise went wrong occurred when Mystery Papa, etc. refused to use the confidence gained as a foundation with which to build on, but instead just replicated the behavior on numerous women.

Style, on the other hand used the community to really believe in himself and from there refused to believe that he wasnt good enough of a catch for Lisa. That is where the pua strategy leaves these other guys hanging. They never truly became alpha males whereas Style did. He used his success with women and his small victories AMOG'ing to believe in himself and use the foundation to take a relationship further than just sleeping with a girl or receiving validation from her in some form. These other guys simply gained the small victories without ever stepping up to the real challenge. That being, could they be validated as people, rather than as just short-lived performers.

[Tucker Max]

Papa pimped Paris?! jeez... i knew they were geeks from reading, but the pictures are hilarious

Dude, he got her number. Yes, that is more than many guys could do, but whatever, its just a number.

Remember: Coffee is for closers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104348/quotes)

[andrew8613]

I didn't put this book down once I started it. Really hit home with me, in a lot of ways.

Let me be the first to admit that I am the definition of the beta male in these books. Think the same, have the same background story, deal with the same esteem issues in general. Like others others that have posted, I discovered fastseduction.com several years ago, and practiced some of the methods they instruct. I think it was a great way to get over fear of the opposite sex. But even then, after I got beyond the basics, I didn't get into the hocus pocus side of things -- magic tricks, palm reading, all that crap wasn't my style, and its obvious if you've talked to me. I just figured I was a bad actor and kind of gave up on the whole PUA thing. I think this is the case with a lot of visitors to that site.

But these kids that mimic the routines to a tee remind me of so many of my other beta male friends. They buy a video game. They master the video game. They know every mundane statistic that could possibily affect them within the video game, then break down together how they can best adjust these statistics. Then they all play the same way.

This book (and Fight Club) did a lot for my personal growth. It reaffirmed and permenantly etched what I already knew -- don't fake it, being yourself is the ONLY way for improvement. Everything else is just a step backwards.

These past two books have given me a sort of epiphany. I can't play video games and just shut off the rest of the world anymore. I'm too much aware of the oppurtunities around me.

[Tucker Max]

Conclusion: I think the pua community can be the answer. Just so long as it's used to develop the best You you can be.

Did you read the book? Because it's funny: Your point is completely opposite of what Style, the mPUA, says about the PUA community.

The PUA community is NOT the answer. It can start guys down the right path to the answer, as in Styles case, but they have to find it themself. The community itself does not teach it, FOR FUCKS SAKE THAT IS THE FUCKING THESIS OF THE BOOK. Just look at the others like Papa and Tyler Durden. Shit, look at their pics posted above.

No wonder some of you can't figure shit out about your life, you can't even comprehend what you read.

[jwolf]

It can start guys down the right path to the answer, as in Styles case, but they have to find it themself.
If you notice, eventually there are hundreds and hundreds of techniques that PUAs are coming up with. Even newcomers posted shit that worked for them. They have numerous approaches from all kinds of gurus in the community. Almost everyone came up with a technique that works after being in the game for a little. Well that's just because everyone can have their own technique: it's called their personality. If there are so many techniques, then the success isn't based on the pickup community, but individual confidence from more exposure to women.

The pickup community helps out people that have trouble getting out the front door in the first place. But eventually you have to develop a game after your own personality, otherwise you'll always be looking to someone else for the answers, and that never lasts. Plus, how much confidence can you gain if you're someone else's minion? You're living life based on their personality, and that always leaves you 2nd rate.

The most important thing Style took from that whole community, is simply having the balls to start talking to women. After that initial push, he took a life and mind of his own. He listened to the gurus, but always questioned them and kept a critical mind. He thought for himself, and stayed true to his judgements, and that's why I think it worked out in the end for him.

[Corman]

I wrote the following after finishing the book. Some of this may have been said already.

I just finished The Game. I started it Wednesday afternoon and finished it less than 48 hours later, basically putting my life on hold for two days. I want to get some initial ideas down before I crash [ed: November 9 – 11].

This book is about picking up women in the same way that “Bringing Down The House” is about playing blackjack. Sure, they’re both set within a specific subculture, but it’s the human story and adventure that really drives the plot. I didn’t learn all that much about picking up women from the book and I didn’t expect to. Not that I’m an alpha male in either the style of a pickup artist or of Mr. Max, I would have a lot to learn to get to that level, but there is very little in this book in the way of specific advice. For that, I’m grateful. I think the book would really crawl if it were filled with specific techniques. It would also shrink the appeal of the book. Not everyone wants to read, or can relate to, a book about how to pick up women. The way it’s written now, most everyone I know can relate to this story.

I guess this is because the two themes, I think they’re themes anyway, that I found in the book are very universal. The first, growing into the person you’ve always wanted to be, is the basic conflict that we all fight to resolve in our lives. That distance between who we are and who we would like to be is the fundamental dissatisfaction that drives us to get an education, to work out, to read more, to do less drugs, to do more drugs, to dress better, to travel, and yes, even to sign up for seminars on how to pick up women. I would be very surprised to find someone who is one hundred percent happy with the person they are, who didn’t have some aspect of their life they wanted to improve (or was currently working on improving). This is where the book really shines. The transformation from the insecure guy who can’t approach people, to beginning pickup artist, to master of the craft, to eventual dissatisfaction with the whole scene is, I think, the only arc that this book could follow. That arc (I hope I’m using that right) is the one we naturally follow in our own lives. From wide-eyed FNG to the veteran who has beaten the system and once the challenge is gone, goes looking for a new mountain to climb (sorry for the terrible metaphor). It’s the parallel he draws to the mechanical bull. Once he’s ridden it on level 11, the next feeling he has is disappointment and “buyers remorse”. It might be an obvious metaphor, and it probably could be developed a little fuller, but the reader gets it. Once something is not a challenge anymore there is a certain hollowness that accompanies it and it’s easy to lose interest.

I think that his eventual dissatisfaction would have happened even if project Hollywood hadn’t existed or hadn’t been such a disaster. He starts to touch on this when he’s with Tom Cruise and they go to the Scientology meeting. When he is saying:

“I was getting tired asking girls if they thought spells worked or if they wanted to take the best friends test or if they noticed how their nose wiggled when they laughed. I just wanted to walk into a set and say, "Love me. I'm Style!"

This is the second theme, or maybe a sub-theme, the idea that being a pickup artist can’t be the total of one’s personality. It’s what kills project Hollywood. I’ll have to go back and look for it, but somewhere there is a twist, from where being a pickup artist was about improving one aspect of a person’s personality to being an identity in itself. Maybe the twist is when people start quitting their jobs to do nothing but be pickup artists, to run the seminars and to have people come live in the house fight club style, but I suspect that it’s earlier. I think Neil best shows this when Tyler comes to ask him how he could get a girl like Lisa. But he touches on it much earlier also, when he posts to the MSN group “Are you a social robot”. There are really hints all along, now that I think about it. That people were losing themselves to become pickup artists, but I didn’t see that until I finished the book. I think I would have picked it up if I hadn’t read the damn thing so fast.

This is where I think the two tie together, making them not so separate. Being comfortably socially is a goal and once that goal is reached, it should be time to move on and develop other parts of one’s personality, to develop other goals and hobbies. Neil writes (when out with Lisa) “it was one of the toughest dinners of my life. We’d spend so much time together already that I literally had no more material left. I was forced to be myself.” Style is the best pickup artist in the community, he is the one that people are emulating, and at the end of the day it all comes back to being himself.

-----

Added later

One thing that surprised me is how hard it is for some people to simply start a conversation with a stranger. I am not, and I don’t view myself as, an Alpha / Pickup artist / whatever. I’m just a normal guy. I know enough to start a conversation and I’d like to fool myself into thinking that I’m interesting enough to keep it going (or am cunning enough to ask the right questions). This book did make me realize how much of social interaction is really a competition to establish dominance. I guess I knew that before, that we’re social animals and that our social structures are hierarchical isn’t new and I’ve done some reading on it, but until I finished this book I didn’t see it in my own interactions. Then again, I wasn’t looking for it before. Establishing dominance in social situations isn’t something I want to think about every time I meet someone new, but I guess that genie is already out of the bottle, no way to put it back. Maybe I’m overly cynical, but it seems like learning all these patterns, and remembering all the body language and the negs and everything else would take all the fun out of meeting people. I wouldn’t want to go out and repeat the same thing night after night, but I guess the author touches on that in the scene with Tom Cruise also.

For all the emptiness and tragedy that seems to surround Style in the book, I did enjoy his personal story. Like I said earlier, I think this story could only really unfold one way and that is him going from shy introvert to seeing that in the end all it takes is having enough confidence to put his best foot forward. The fact that he finds love is touching if a little cheesy, but it is a great way to wrap up the story. I’m also glad that he didn’t become embittered in the end and find religion or try and go 180 degrees in the other direction when his dissatisfaction with the whole pickup artist lifestyle eventually comes. He is self aware enough to understand who he is and I guess that either comes from his age, his career or having Lisa there at the end. Whatever it is, it works. If Liz from the submitted story forum is still lurking around, she could learn everything from this book.

If Neil stops by this forum to see what we’re all saying, I’d just like to say thanks. You’ve written, and lived, one hell of a story that I couldn’t put down. For all the themes and arcs and what-have-yous this is a hell of a book and at the end I had to consciously remind myself that it’s all true. Hell, I hope that someday my fiction comes across as half as engaging as The Game does.

[nomembername]

Did you read the book? Because it's funny: Your point is completely opposite of what Style, the mPUA, says about the PUA community.

The PUA community is NOT the answer. It can start guys down the right path to the answer, as in Styles case, but they have to find it themself. The community itself does not teach it, FOR FUCKS SAKE THAT IS THE FUCKING THESIS OF THE BOOK. Just look at the others like Papa and Tyler Durden. Shit, look at their pics posted above.

No wonder some of you can't figure shit out about your life, you can't even comprehend what you read.

You actually didnt comprehend what I wrote. I said it got their foot in the door and helped build a base. Which it did for Style as well.

I think when he says it's not the answer he means relying on it for every move you make isnt the answer. But not he, nor you, nor anyone can deny that there is no Style, No Neil Strauss as he is today without the pua community. It was his answer. Without them, he never would have found himself. Without the pua community, what are the chances he becomes the guy who lands a girl in a famous rock band?

The pua community was the answer to his problems the same way getting out of it was the answer. He manipulated the system for what it was meant to do. Build confidence. Not prop you up like a crutch.

[Slutcakes]

Tucker, you mentioned earlier about Mystery's methods not working at certain upscale bars but being the perfect game for bars/clubs that idiot girls frequent. That being said, I think canned routines can be useful to get you in the door, but only if modified to fit the guy's personal style and certain situations. These lines can be a great tool for not so great-looking guys to open the conversation, but ONLY IF they have the game to back it up. No girl wants to hear the tired phrases like "come here often?" You have to differentiate yourself from the crowd.

Much of the game is just like the job interview process. You can lie on your resume to sound attractive to company and get your foot in the door, but you must rely on your confidence, conversation skills and the ability to sell yourself to close the deal.

Didn't Neil mention that David D. was a good looking guy in the book? In that pic he looks like he borrowed Mr. Potato Head's nose.

[backwards7]

A couple of years ago I was holed-up in a fly-town on the Eritrean/Sudanese border. One evening the effeminate teenage cook who worked at the street kitchen where I ate, quizzed me on strategies for dating western women. He couldn’t have picked a worse person to ask because I don’t have a clue. My barroom patter has never really evolved beyond crash-landing into a group and then saying whatever ridiculous thing happens to come into my head, while manically waving my arms about.

My perspective on The Game and on the pick-up artist scene is that of an outsider. If anything I say sounds uninformed or naïve, it is because, on this subject, I am uninformed and naïve.

I’ve read the books by Neil Strauss before – the biographies he wrote with Motley Crue and Marylyn Manson. You can tell he’s worked as a journalist. His writing balances the need to keep the narrative moving, with the intuitive splashes of detail and insight that bring a story to life.

The Dirt and The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell are both books which I read very quickly. It’s the kind of writing where you think: ‘Well, just another chapter’ and then half an hour later you’re still reading. The Game was like that. I read it in four sittings, over the course of two days.

One thing that I greatly enjoy in Neil’s prose is his occasional ability to write a sentence that is so direct and to the point that it makes a big piece of your brain light up. You want to put the book down for a moment and ponder on what you’ve just read. This is one that I copied down, but there were others:

“I like the idea of filling in a coloured shape on the map with real fact, feeling and experience.”

Neil has that very cinematic way of framing reality – I don’t mean that he writes good visual descriptions, although he does. I mean the way the narrative is structured feels like it’s being prepped for storyboarding. Roughly halfway through the book there is a transitional chapter in which he gives short accounts of dates he’s been on. Towards the end of this montage, the writing speeds up. The accounts get shorter until they’re down to single sentences. It’s like watching the last grains of sand being sucked through the neck of an hourglass. And it has a point: It communicates the breadth of his experience and also the effect this experience is having on him – the way that as he gets drawn into the world of the pick-up artist, the names and faces of women arrive thick and fast and the details become less important.

* * *

Early on in the book when Neil is learning the basics of the game, there were moments when I wanted to interrupt him and ask him to clarify certain points. As a person with very little experience of picking up women, who has never attempted any of these techniques, some of them do come across as a little bizarre. Most of my queries were addressed later in the book, when Neil evolves as a person and sees the flaws in his earlier plays.

In between laughing at the account of his Batman utility belt of dating – all the crap he carries around with him to attract the attention of women - I wondered, for instance: When a pick-up artist goes out with a memorised routine and maybe a cue sheet in his back pocket, what happens when the conversation goes beyond the limits of the routine?

What I immediately thought of were those A.I. programs that you can interact with; the goal of their creators is to make something that can imitate human conversation. However what usually happens is that, as the conversation moves away from opening pleasantries; as it broadens and deepens, there is a moment when you step beyond the limits of the program. The A.I.’s responses become less relevant; maybe even nonsensical or vague.

I thought: Doesn’t a similar thing happen to a pick-up artist who approaches a woman, where the only card up his sleeve is the routine he has memorised. There must be a point at which the script runs out and the pick up artist has to fly blind. He has to fall back on his inner resources; trust that his witty repartee will see him through. I wondered how some of these men coped with that because a lot of them didn’t appear to have much in the way of natural charisma or social grace.

* * *

What becomes apparent towards the end of the book is that many of the pick-up artists are con men. They fool themselves and they have the skills to fool other people, though not for long. They present the superficial appearance of inwardly confident men when in fact they are nothing of the sort.

I don’t want to kiss too much arse, but Neil Strauss had the wit to use the techniques he learned as a scaffold; to give support as he was building himself up. When he outgrew these techniques – understood how they worked and what their limitations were, he took down the scaffolding. What was left behind was a wiser and more confident man.

Tyler and his ilk lack that inner core and they never take any positive steps towards cultivating one. They analyse data in a way that hones the efficiency of their routines but they don’t really scratch the surface of what they are doing.

It’s the difference between a human being and a computer program pretending to be a human being. They have an ability that gives them an advantage but lack the understanding, maturity and self-knowledge to use it intelligently. It’s like putting guns into the hands of teenagers.

The problem with people who lack this integrity of character – these men with hollow centres, who find themselves in positions of power, is that eventually they either turn on themselves – they collapse inward like Mystery did. Or they get bored and that boredom causes them to become abusive or manipulative. They have no respect for themselves and this translates into them having no respect for anyone else.

I finished The Game an hour ago. It was something that I probably wouldn’t have read if it weren’t for this book club. Although I found it interesting – actually I found it fascinating - and enjoyed the humour and the apparent honesty, I doubt that I will be going down any of the roads explored by Neil and his acquaintances in the pick-up community. My interests won’t take me there.

There are things I read in the book that will play on my mind and which I will think about over the coming days.

[Faraday]

Here are some pictures of many of the characters taken a little over a year ago at a David Deangelo "Double Your Dating" seminar. I got all of these off Thundercat's Seduction Lair.

Jesus Fucking Christ. THESE are the self-styled pick-up artists?

What I forgot to add in my original review was that one of my friends called me and raved about his experience at a recent Real Social Dynamics seminar. This fool paid $2000 to follow Tyler Durden and Papa around.

Now, it's one thing to do this if you don't know any better. It's quite another to do this after reading "The Game" (which he has done). Not only that, he wants to do one of the multi-week seminars in California next year.

Some people never learn.

[Ostro]

That being said, I think canned routines can be useful to get you in the door...
They can be, but they're wholly unnecessary. Look at it this way: you can use canned routines for 15 minutes and then have your true personality emerge, or you can say "Hello" and have your true personality emerge instantly. Why bother with the bullshit of the first option?

[Tucker Max]

What I forgot to add in my original review was that one of my friends called me and raved about his experience at a recent Real Social Dynamics seminar. This fool paid $2000 to follow Tyler Durden and Papa around.

Now, it's one thing to do this if you don't know any better. It's quite another to do this after reading "The Game" (which he has done). Not only that, he wants to do one of the multi-week seminars in California next year.

This is something I wonder about--how has this book affected their business? If I am an AFC and I read this, there is no chance that I follow Papa or Tyler Durden anywhere. These guys are chumps and Neil outted them.

[Shock]

That being said, I think canned routines can be useful to get you in the door, but only if modified to fit the guy's personal style and certain situations.

Pre-packaged lines don't matter. You can say just about anything and it doesn't matter. In line with your door to door salesman "foot in the door" allusion, it doesn't really even matter if she says "No." right off the bat. All it means is she's just trying to slam the door on your foot. You're ultimately going to be rejected a fair amount of the time, and nothing will change that. What it comes down to is what you're selling- Is it a flashy, empty promise-laden product that may break down after a few uses, or is it something of value? That all comes down to you. Are you comfortable enough with your own value or are you using Pick Up Line in a can and subterfuge to cover up flaws you're afraid of being exposed? You're always going be better selling a product you truly believe in than one you're just praying a sucker will buy.

[Tucker Max]

Maybe I’m overly cynical, but it seems like learning all these patterns, and remembering all the body language and the negs and everything else would take all the fun out of meeting people. I wouldn’t want to go out and repeat the same thing night after night, but I guess the author touches on that in the scene with Tom Cruise also.

Yeah dude, you are right. I have kinda started to feel this, especially over the past two years. When I was in law school and for like two years after that, so much of the fun in going out was practicing and honing your skills, trying to get laid, fucking with your friends, and then every now and then finding that fun/smart/crazy girl that can hold your interest or create a story.

But once your game gets to a certain level, it gets boring. I can now go out just about any night and get laid. It's so fucking easy for me that I don't even do it that much anymore (and this is aside from all the girls that come to me through the website, which makes it even that much more boring).

[Dudeman]

I was this guy (http://www.savefile.com/files/4530144). But instead of finding the PUA community after his break up, I found tuckermax.com.
Reading your stuff has instilled in me some mad confidence. Thank you.

The Game has led me to do all sorts of extra reading regarding pick up. I have read hundreds, if not thousands, of pages from ASF and there is some good stuff there. Like Strauss said, you just have to cherry pick what's best for you.

In The Game, Strauss only talks about one side of the community where they use indirect methods to "fly under the radar" so the girls don't know they're being gamed or whatnot. I think it gives a false impression of the PUA community. Everything that Strauss says about MM, RSD, and SS is true, but he didn't mention Direct Game and the new sargers like Badboy, Fidentia, or theApproach that don't use routines or anything that is characterized in detail.
Maybe Strauss left the game before these guys showed up, but there is a side of the PUA community that does not rely on canned routines and doesn't break down every social interaction to compensate for low self esteem.
A lot of their stuff is congruent with what Tucker Max teaches, although a little better explained.

I've read The Game twice in a week. It's good, but I think it could've been better, I found it a little soft, edited really well for a large audience. I would've enjoyed it more if it was more raw like Max's stories.

[drinkupjohnny]

I would bet the book had a positive impact on their business. The target audience for the PUA businesses will ignore the bad parts and focus on the descriptions of how the techniques can work. These guys don't expect to get laid immediately. Number-closing is so far beyond where they are, they'll pay big money just for that. Also, they are drawn to the community because they don't have a lot of friends. A lot of these guys have good jobs and can afford to blow $2000 or whatever. Think about it, this is the same demographic that's responsible for the financial success of Everquest, Star Trek, etc., etc.

[Tucker Max]

Maybe Strauss left the game before these guys showed up, but there is a side of the PUA community that does not rely on canned routines and doesn't break down every social interaction to compensate for low self esteem.
A lot of their stuff is congruent with what Tucker Max teaches, although a little better explained.

This is actually something I have been wondering about:

If there are guys on this board who are really into the PUA community, can you possibly give us a primer on the best sites? Like, maybe link some of the best/most well known sites and give a short guide on what to read and what is really good? We can find David DeAngelo and Ross Jeffries and RSD on our own, but maybe the really good stuff that someone like me who hasn't studied this community at all wouldn't find at first. I kinda want to see what is considered the best stuff in this field now, but I don't want to wade through all the crap.

[Zev]

Yeah dude, you are right. I have kinda started to feel this, especially over the past two years. When I was in law school and for like two years after that, so much of the fun in going out was practicing and honing your skills, trying to get laid, fucking with your friends, and then every now and then finding that fun/smart/crazy girl that can hold your interest or create a story.

But once your game gets to a certain level, it gets boring. I can now go out just about any night and get laid. It's so fucking easy for me that I don't even do it that much anymore (and this is aside from all the girls that come to me through the website, which makes it even that much more boring).

This may be off topic but I'm interested to know what keeps you motivated since you have reached a certain level in which you are without challenges?

[Tucker Max]

This may be off topic but I'm interested to know what keeps you motivated since you have reached a certain level in which you are without challenges?

Without challenges? When did I say that? I have a TON of challenges in my life. It's just that picking up girls to fuck and getting pussy is not one of them. For me, getting laid is the easiest part of the day, but that doesn't mean that I don't have a ton of challenges.

[Profil]

I looked at www.fastseduction.com's board (you need to register) and I found one review of The game, and the review was bad in itself, but the replys were like, not exactly quoted: "oh no, don't review this book. It's all part of Neil's plan, he knew it would get bad reviews but it still makes commercial for his book lalala"
So I think the rest of the community is kinda in denial? If I'm incorrect, I apologise.
One question I got for Tucker is: How was your game in high school? Did you score a lot? Or were you generally just a "normal" kid?

Edit: http://www.neilstrauss.com/ huh?

[wojtek]

I think it gives a false impression of the PUA community. Everything that Strauss says about MM, RSD, and SS is true, but he didn't mention Direct Game and the new sargers like Badboy, Fidentia, or theApproach that don't use routines or anything that is characterized in detail.



The point we're all making here, is that any sort of PUA technique won't work in the long run. None, zero, nada, none of them. You need to gain confidence and be comfortable in your skin. Everything simply flows once you're confident.

With these techniques, You're still not really being yourself. Maybe it'll help you gain your confidence like it did Strauss, but if you cling onto it as holy writ like the PUA community did you won't go anywhere.

[Zev]

Without challenges? When did I say that? I have a TON of challenges in my life. It's just that picking up girls to fuck and getting pussy is not one of them. For me, getting laid is the easiest part of the day, but that doesn't mean that I don't have a ton of challenges.

My post was worded like complete shit. How do you keep yourself interested in women when things come so naturally for you at this point in your life? If fucking girls is as routine as drinking coffee in the morning, what is left? I'm 20. Obviously you can tell I don't know much. I'm just trying to gain some insight.

[Faraday]

If there are guys on this board who are really into the PUA community, can you possibly give us a primer on the best sites? Like, maybe link some of the best/most well known sites and give a short guide on what to read and what is really good?

In the year or two when I read the sites religiously, I spent most of my time at fast seduction (www.fastseduction.com) and www.sosuave.com. However, I don't think that either of the sites are that good.

I'd have to say the "cream of the crap" from the PUA community was in listening to the "inner game" portion of David DeAngelo's "Advanced Dating Techniques" seminar. He references, among other sourcs, "Sperm Wars" and "The Red Queen".

Also, his "attraction is not a choice" mantra is good for guys who think that being a nice guy who showers a girl with dinner, gifts, and attention is a good way to get into a girl's pants. Basically, he talks about how you need to act a certain way to show that "you're the prize" -- basically, act like the guy who doesn't need it because he's already getting it.

Of course, there's no need to pay the $300 or whatever he's asking for the CD set to learn these things. I borrowed the set from the same friend who's currently spending thousands on Real Social Dynamics seminars.

After listening to all 12 hours of the seminar, I spent about 6 months trying the stuff I learned. The good thing is that I no longer chased women who clearly weren't interested ("oneitis"). The bad thing is that I was still disappointed because no matter how many women I met, I never got any where with them, and I still felt like a loser.

Not until I started working on getting a life did I finally start to get some confidence. And that's when the women showed up. Funny, isn't it?

[munch4037]

With these techniques, You're still not really being yourself. Maybe it'll help you gain your confidence like it did Strauss, but if you cling onto it as holy writ like the PUA community did you won't go anywhere.

I think this is the key concept of the book. "The game" can work to give you confidence, but that's it. If you sit around trying to find the perfect pattern, the perfect routine, the perfect opener, you'll never be successful as the variation of experience within the human species as so different as to make it impossible.

Sure, you can learn from someone who does it naturally, but emulating them will ultimately fail because you are not them, and clearly, they are better at being themselves than you are.

Its not as if the game is a bad thing, it can be quite helpful. Honestly, the worst advice you can give someone is "Be yourself" or "Be confident." They're terribly true, but terribly useless. What the game offers is something specific to say, something specific to do, a recipe, a cookbook for pussy if you will.

Its a kind of crutch, an external attempt to fix whatever social ability that an individual lacks. However, like any crutch, eventually you have to learn to walk on your own. Knowing you are capable of being successful with women can be a big confidence boost for a struggling individual, however, the end result is midguiding. People become obsessed with the game rather than realizing what it is that they are missing that the game covers up. It is the path of least resistance, and people will generally take it, whether or not it is good for them.

[Dudeman]

This is actually something I have been wondering about:

If there are guys on this board who are really into the PUA community, can you possibly give us a primer on the best sites? Like, maybe link some of the best/most well known sites and give a short guide on what to read and what is really good? We can find David DeAngelo and Ross Jeffries and RSD on our own, but maybe the really good stuff that someone like me who hasn't studied this community at all wouldn't find at first. I kinda want to see what is considered the best stuff in this field now, but I don't want to wade through all the crap.

The ASF boards are so big they're full of crap now. Instead of going through all the posts and finding what's good (which would take too long anyway), I go to blogs of guys who have solid game.
Some of the best sites are:

bristollair.com (collection of the best posts from ASF, it includes posts by all the people from The Game, including the dual induction massage for threesomes by style)

http://www.charismasciences.com (Juggler's weblog, althought he did get some smack talk in The Game about how he was only a social commentator and not a PUA, I still find his stuff good)

http://spiritfingerspua.blogspot.com/ (asian dude I look up to because I'm asian. And he proclaims natural game over that routined stuff)

http://theshezzlerpua.blogspot.com/ (I've only read one or two things off this guy's site, but he puts up the good stuff that he gets off of ASF so we don't have to go through it.

[Tucker Max]

One question I got for Tucker is: How was your game in high school? Did you score a lot? Or were you generally just a "normal" kid?

Not all that great. I got pussy, but not anywhere near as much as I wanted. I was not a natural in the way that Neil described his friend Dustin (I think that was his name), but I was not a dork in the sense that Neil was either. And I was definitely not the BMOC or anything like that. I definitely have some natural charisma and what not, and I have tons and tons of confidence, but most of what I do now I learned either by trial and error or by watching those that work and apating their methods to my game.

[Faraday]

Its a kind of crutch, an external attempt to fix whatever social ability that an individual lacks. However, like any crutch, eventually you have to learn to walk on your own. Knowing you are capable of being successful with women can be a big confidence boost for a struggling individual, however, the end result is midguiding.

The PUA community is definitely a social crutch for people who didn't develop the confidence to approach women on their own. It's hard for me to explain the euphoria I felt when I first learned about fastseduction.com.

I believe the initial purpose of the PUA community was to help people like me who never "got" women in high school. Unfortunately, the problem is that there is a deeper flaw in the beta males who take to the PUA facade. The obvious problem is that they don't have the skills or the mentality to pick-up women. The REAL problem, however, is that these people don't have the mentality, confidence, or the courage to live life. They don't think that they are intrinsically worthly enough to be accepted. That's why they have to resort to all the scripts, routines, and tricks.

Here's an imperfect analogy -- do you think that people would have bought all those records if Britney Spears didn't dress like a whore, dance, and make the tabloids? No fucking way. She's average at best in looks and has a barely passable voice. However, now, we see what she really is. . . Louisiana, low-class trailer trash.

If you have to resort to NLP, SS, magic tricks, routines, scripts, openers to get the attention of women, you probably suck.

[BenjaminPreston]

I was under the impression that Neil had left the PUA community.

http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/2005/11/neil_strauss_te.html

What's this about him conducting seminars? Am I reading this correctly?

And what's this about?

http://neilstrauss.com/
Yes it's true.

Despite pressure from his publishers, his closest friends, and even a team of high-priced lawyers not to, Neil has decided to give ONE LAST GIFT of knowledge to you.

And once this knowledge is revealed, Neil Strauss -- arguably the most successful pick-up artist in modern times -- will disappear from the seduction scene... forever.

[Arpanet]

There's one sentence in The Game that really foreshadows the conclusion that Strauss leads his readers to:

It was such stupid AFC thinking. There was still a nice guy lurking in my head that I had to get rid of (75).

It seems like the essence of becoming a Mystery-type pick-up artist is learning to discard your old self in favor for someone flashier, louder, more noticeable than the rest. I think this is why Mystery ultimately fails. No matter how much game you "learn," no matter how many tricks you can pull, you're still the same basic person. As soon as a woman gets past the facade of feather boas and large hats, you're fucked. And as I think you yourself have said, Tucker, women are not worth betraying yourself for.

What I would really like to see is a book on how to become more confident and comfortable around women without doing that.

[spesh]

I was under the impression that Neil had left the PUA community.

http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/2005/11/neil_strauss_te.html

What's this about him conducting seminars? Am I reading this correctly?

And what's this about?

http://neilstrauss.com/

Holy Shit. I can't tell if you are serious or not.

Have you even visited http://neilstrauss.com ? You can't really believe thats an official site, can you? They can't even spell 'surprise' correctly.

And the blog entry about the tele-conference? There are even comments on the same page calling the bullshit. You should definitely sign up for the VIP email list. You can get the surprize email too! The one that goes against his high priced lawyer's advice!

Can anyone link to Neil's official site? I've Googled and come up empty handed, but I know I was looking at it a few weeks ago.

[SuburbanGangsta]

This is something I wonder about--how has this book affected their business? If I am an AFC and I read this, there is no chance that I follow Papa or Tyler Durden anywhere. These guys are chumps and Neil outted them.
It might hurt Papa and Tyler Durden, but I think this book will actually boost business for other PUAs. How many people saw Scarface and said, "Wow, it would be awesome to be a gangster." Of course, the whole point of the movie is that Tony Montana leads a miserable life and ends up destroying himself, but somehow that gets lost on most people. All they see is the money and power that comes with being a drug dealer, none of the guilt and misery. I really think a lot of people are going to read this book and say, "Wow, that U-shaped smile vs C-shaped smile routine is money." And it's a lot easier to write Mystery a check than it is to run a cocaine empire.

EDIT: Just to further my point, check out this review of the book.

The Attraction Chronicles (http://attraction-chronicles.blogspot.com/2005/09/book-review-game-by-neil-strauss.html)

Some quotes:
And I must say, [the Bible design] is quite appropriate. Move over Lay Guide, so long eBooks, "The Game : Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists" is the new bible for any man who wants to improve with women! A few chapters into this book, I realized that this wasn't going to be the "tell-all expose" I was anticipating. This is a book written by arguably one of the best seducers to ever come out of the community, and in it, he shares everything. I mean EVERYTHING.
I would go so far as to say that is book is a MUST OWN for anyone out there looking to improve with women. This isn't just a story. This is a "how-to guide."

[Tucker Max]

It might hurt Papa and Tyler Durden, but I think this book will actually boost business for other PUAs. How many people saw Scarface and said, "Wow, it would be awesome to be a gangster." Of course, the whole point of the movie is that Tony Montana leads a miserable life and ends up destroying himself, but somehow that gets lost on most people. All they see is the money and power that comes with being a drug dealer, none of the guilt and misery. I really think a lot of people are going to read this book and say, "Wow, that U-shaped smile vs C-shaped smile routine is money." And it's a lot easier to write Mystery a check than it is to run a cocaine empire.

Scarface was not about the pitfalls of being a gangster or a drug-dealer, it was about the pitfalls of hubris. It was nothing but a classic Greek tragedy revised and set against the backdrop of the Muriel Boat Lift and the late 70's Miami drug culture. His job was not truly relevant to the story. Tony Montana could easily be a fucking ice cream salesman. Orestia anyone?: http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/netshots/tragedy.htm

Of course, the fact that you do not have the first clue what Scarface is about probably helps your point more than the actual point you made.

[Latka]

I agree 100% with everyone who has said that these guys are just wearing a facade. The game is not helping them fill the holes in their lives. In fact it is making the holes larger because the guys become so obsessed with their community that they lose touch with themselves. Maybe I missed it, but I have not seen anyone really get into these guys' character. Here is my analysis:

These guys are not average joes who never figured out how to deal with women. They are nerds. They never figured out how to deal with anyone at all. They wanted desperately to be like the naturals and the alphas, but instead of putting in the effort to grow as people and become alphas, they decided to chase the symbol of alphahood--women. To the PUAs, women are proof that they are as good as the alphas, but the guys are not alphas--and they know it.

The community is rampant with the nerd mentality. Mystery says the game is a video game. When I think of the PUA community I envision a group of pimply-faced young men at a LAN party, playing on their computers and exchanging level-up tips with one another. The game the PUAs play is just Halo 2 for higher stakes. Sure the PUAs may have l337 skillz, but at the end of the day they are still broken individuals.

[MX61]

This is my favorite book I've read in a long, long time. One thing that hasn't been touched on very much is the part in the book where Style meets some PUAs in the California Pizza Kitchen, and Ross Jeffries used "anchoring" on the waitress. I have mixed reactions to it, but if nothing else I thought it was a pretty impressive demonstration. I'd specifically like to hear what Tucker thought about that, but really it's open to anybody who can speak intelligently on it.

I agree completely with the idea of pick up communities being a social crutch, and the reason I think people move towards them is a fear of failure, obviously. The main reason a lot of guys don't approach girl after girl is because they're afraid to hear "No" because of what that will do to their sense of self. I had a HUGE problem with this when I first got to college, and while I wouldn't say it's completely gone now I'm definately a lot better about it than I was. The pick up community is a crutch for guys in 2 senses I think. One, guys think it will help them get women obviously, and therefore validation. And two (I don't think this has been brought up, but forgive me if it has), at least if they fail after fallowing some set of guidelines they got from a PUA they can say, "Well this shit this guy told me doesn't work." They can defer the sense of rejection, they can feel like some other guys shitty line got rejected, not themself as a person getting rejected.

[snakeyes110]

i just bought the game a few days ago; i thought it would be a book focused more on getting better game but im still enjoying it. So can anyone recommend any books that actually do focus on improving game and arent just big loads of shit.

[Tucker Max]

i just bought the game a few days ago; i thought it would be a book focused more on getting better game but im still enjoying it. So can anyone recommend any books that actually do focus on improving game and arent just big loads of shit.

Well, I guess SuburbanGangsta was right--idiots like this won't understand the point of the book, even when I take massive pains to make it clear to them.

[Tucker Max]

EDIT: Just to further my point, check out this review of the book.

The Attraction Chronicles (http://attraction-chronicles.blogspot.com/2005/09/book-review-game-by-neil-strauss.html)

Some quotes:

Wow. Fuck, these people are just painfully dense and unaware. This is just sad.

[Arpanet]

This is my favorite book I've read in a long, long time. One thing that hasn't been touched on very much is the part in the book where Style meets some PUAs in the California Pizza Kitchen, and Ross Jeffries used "anchoring" on the waitress. I have mixed reactions to it, but if nothing else I thought it was a pretty impressive demonstration. I'd specifically like to hear what Tucker thought about that, but really it's open to anybody who can speak intelligently on it.

I thought it was impressive, yeah, but creepy as all get-out. Not to mention the fact that it demeans both the manipulator and the manipulatee (is that a word?). The idea of using psychological mind-games to get in a girl's pants reduces interactions between males and females to, as has been mentioned before, a video game: press the right buttons in the right order and you win. I'd like to think that we're a little more sophisticated and respectful than that.

[Tucker Max]

I thought it was impressive, yeah, but creepy as all get-out. Not to mention the fact that it demeans both the manipulator and the manipulatee (is that a word?). The idea of using psychological mind-games to get in a girl's pants reduces interactions between males and females to, as has been mentioned before, a video game: press the right buttons in the right order and you win. I'd like to think that we're a little more sophisticated and respectful than that.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. I have read enough about Ross Jeffries to get the general idea, and I find it extraordinarily distasteful and almost sickening. He is just so greasy.

Sadly though, I would have to say that most people aren't more sophisticated than that. Most people are basic and easily predictable.

[MX61]

What I would really like to see is a book on how to become more confident and comfortable around women without doing that.
That was the whole point of The Game, though. Being comfortable and confident around women means being comfortable and confident with your life and to be such you just have to go out and live it.

[DrDiesel07]

I came across sites like SoSuave and FastSeduction a few months ago and have had one source of good advice and several bad.

The only decent bit of PU advice I have ever come across is in SoSuave's "Don Juan Boot Camp" (http://www.jbspencer.com/djb/djbc.pdf). This actually focuses on building up your confidence and comfort around women. Not caring about rejection and recognizing your own value is stressed especially. A groundwork is laid for number closing and eventually dating a girl but it doesnt use routines it just sets you up to use your own individual "natural" game.

All the discussion forums like SoSuave and FastSeduction are useless. All they are is a group of AFCs asking "This girl looked at me today!!! Should I ask her out?????" There a few good PUAs on the site that actually have natural game but 98% of the members are the line-memorizing type.

O and also the book is awesome and I would definately reccommend it if for nothing else then entertainment. It was excellent.

[wojtek]

The Attraction Chronicles (http://attraction-chronicles.blogspot.com/2005/09/book-review-game-by-neil-strauss.html)



Reading that throws me into used car salesman mode. He's laying it on so thick
you can almost hear the pitch "But you know what, if you think Neil is good, You'll LOVE what I have for ya!"..

So...damn... robotic.

[Uncouth]

Neil's hesitation to close girls and face his fears of sexual rejection was exactly what I experienced at one point. A part of you denies that this girl in front of you wants you to kiss her, and denies it so strongly that it shackles you.

That's the worst thing about a lack of self-confidence. Not only does it make you less attractive to women, it causes you to miss what opportunities that do arise, thus preventing you from breaking out of that rut. I only broke out because I had a good friend start kicking me in the ass until I overcame my fear.

Juggler had an interesting quote on pg. 116:

He was a cool guy. But he had a lack of confidence that made no sense, as if he felt there was something missing about himself-a piece that would make him complete. I was pretty sure he was searching for it outside when he would eventually find it inside.

And that's what the book was to me. Broken people who had never felt accepted. Of course, the key is to accept yourself, but it's a hard lesson to learn. Most never learn it, and that's sad. They go through life trying to plug that hole and it leads to all sorts of grief.

[Arpanet]

That was the whole point of The Game, though. Being comfortable and confident around women means being comfortable and confident with your life and to be such you just have to go out and live it.

When I wrote that, I had just started the book. I'm now much further along and I've gotten the message. Of all the other PUAs/gurus Neil discusses, he seems to respect Juggler the most - and rightfully so. Juggler is just, in Neil's words, a "masterful conversationalist." He's a normal guy that has mastered the art of interpersonal communication, as his lively and emotive writing style proves. This flows from his confidence in his intelligence, sense of humor, and himself.

I think part of the reason The Game is such a great book is that, at its core, it's just a classic Triumph of the Underdog story wrapped in this fascinating shell of pickup artists and clubs and sex. The transformation of Neil from insecure writer to confident man proves that anyone can do it, and that's very comforting to the people likely to be reading this book.

[Uncouth]

Wow. Fuck, these people are just painfully dense and unaware. This is just sad.

Is it that, or is he just spinning to try and limit the damage? Strauss makes pretty much everybody in the community except Juggler look pathetic or dishonest. Not too many people would be willing to pay two grand for two days' instruction from one of these guys after reading that book.

[JonB]

Without challenges? When did I say that? I have a TON of challenges in my life. It's just that picking up girls to fuck and getting pussy is not one of them. For me, getting laid is the easiest part of the day, but that doesn't mean that I don't have a ton of challenges.


Have you been hanging out with Jay Z?


I read this book while hanging night and day with a family member in the hospital(the hospital cafeteria was a superb place to meet women), it looked like a bible so most folks thought I was some sort of preacher.

As for the book itself, I thought it was a good read, confidence is something you can get over time, and is helped out by being successful in other areas of your life.

And the advice that I found the most truthful was the whole hard work, fix your appearance stuff, the rest was just BS magic tricks and silly manipulation.

Closing is key, and that you learn from screwing it up in junior high and high school. I have a pet theory that most people who fuck up in college with drinking, relationships, and such were too busy in high school being smart and trying to get into the best college that they failed to learn social skills.

Whatever, Jon

[Greg]

Photos of Mystery dressed as described in the casino scene.

Mystery1 (http://www.ultimatemarketingminisites.com/peacock.jpg)
Mystery2 (http://www.ultimatemarketingminisites.com/mystery.jpg)

[CountMockula]

Tucker, will you post somewhere about your threesome technique?

[spesh]

Tucker, will you post somewhere about your threesome technique?

ROBOT! You fucking social robot!

But seriously, are you asking about it so you can learn from it and use it, or because you have some odd desire about the sex life of the individual concerned?

If it's the former, then you've taken nothing from the book and the subsequent discussions about it. If it's the latter, then good for you. You're another one of the messed up / interestingly perverted people on here.

[Nomad]

I went through 6 phases as I read this book. Interest, amusement, sadness, anger, understanding, and enlightenment. I was interested in how a self proclaimed chump could end up as a the ultimate PUA. I was sad that there were so many people that would go to such extremes to memorize lines and gimmicks to get women's phone numbers. I was angry these people would get so exited about getting a phone number, how old are they? Comparing how many phone numbers one got was like from a scene of the movie the Wood. In that scene the kids were 13 not in their mid 20’s or higher. Later I understood what it was like for someone to have no idea how to get and pick up a woman. How hard it is for some people to make simple approaches and how intimidating the social world can be. If anything this book made me feel better about myself. I am not someone who pulls loads of ass, but I also haven't spend 3 days locked up playing dungeons and dragons. I guess I'm just an average person, but compared to the characters (real people) in this book I am fairly better off than them. Enlightenment; Its just affirmed my view of life. Namely, there is nothing wrong with me and I just have to put the best of me forward, One has be confident in one self, and if you aren’t, shit act like you are.

***

As far as the pick up techiques go I thought they were a joke. I seriously did not think this is what people were paying hundreds of dollars to learn. Memorized lines and tricks, Tricks are what a whore does for money... or coke. But to each his own, I found the book as valuable piece of information and hope that people learn from it (though by some of these post I guess not). It was well written and had a smooth flow, I agree that his writing was visual and it was important for this subject for people to have a visualization of the types of people that do this. So thanks Neil for writing this, and thanks Tucker for putting it up on the book list. I don’t think I would of gone to the chump section of the bookstore to buy this book on my own.

[rockyV]

ROBOT! You fucking social robot!

But seriously, are you asking about it so you can learn from it and use it, or because you have some odd desire about the sex life of the individual concerned?

If it's the former, then you've taken nothing from the book and the subsequent discussions about it. If it's the latter, then good for you. You're another one of the messed up / interestingly perverted people on here.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning from others' experiences. I learned from Tucker's "Breaking Down the Game" entry, but that doesn't mean I'm going to run down to Target, buy six Champion gym shorts, and hit on the hot Hispanic cashier. The point was that it doesn't take weird-ass Jedi mind tricks to pull this shit off, it's just a matter of confidence.

Most men, myself included, have never been involved in a threesome. Hearing a story about someone else arranging one would be a confidence booster. Like before, it doesn't mean I'm going to be hosting massage parties, it just brings the act of a threesome down to a human level, not some holy grail of sexuality.

[spesh]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning from others' experiences. I learned from Tucker's "Breaking Down the Game" entry, but that doesn't mean I'm going to run down to Target, buy six Champion gym shorts, and hit on the hot Hispanic cashier. The point was that it doesn't take weird-ass Jedi mind tricks to pull this shit off, it's just a matter of confidence.

Most men, myself included, have never been involved in a threesome. Hearing a story about someone else arranging one would be a confidence booster. Like before, it doesn't mean I'm going to be hosting massage parties, it just brings the act of a threesome down to a human level, not some holy grail of sexuality.

Perfectly true. But there is a line between learning from someone and imitating them. Cross that line and you become one of the people that Strauss is suggesting you shouldn't.

But I would add that hearing about how Tucker got down in a threesome should really have nothing to do with your self-confidence. If you're pegging your own credibility and success against another person, you're not developing self-confidence. You would be, if anything, exposing your self doubt. Having to hear a story from someone else to boost your own confidence is a dangerous way to live - what happens when that source of confidence disappears?

You know people have threesomes. I know that. Everyone here knows that. Why should it be necessary to hear the details of one specific event to give yourself a boost?

There's nothing wrong with learning from someone - shit, that's essentially why we're all here (not on this board, but in the wider sense). But learning and developing within yourself should not be confused with imitation. Taking something down to the human level shouldn't be something that you can rote learn. The human element is intrinsic, and analysing and repeating destroys this. Learn what you think you need to by all means, but try not to imitate.

There is a certain beauty in the natural interaction of people. You can only really appreciate this when you act like yourself, not a robot. Of course, you can and should improve yourself. But you don't do this through copying the experience of others.

This is one of the main themes that runs through this book, and it is an important lesson for people to learn.

[Tucker Max]

Having to hear a story from someone else to boost your own confidence is a dangerous way to live - what happens when that source of confidence disappears?

There is nothing wrong with drawing inpiration from others. I do it. Everyone does it.

It's not about getting your confidence from others, its about drawing inspiration from them, exactly the way that Neil did with Tom Cruise. You see the difference?

[Style]

Fuck, what a great discussion. I could write ten thousand words responding to some of the posts. But, for now (cause I'm only half-awake), I just want to say that you guys get it. As Tucker Max points out, it's been frustrating to read a lot of the reviews -- I mean, if they think the shit is made up, all they have to do is what KillerCam did and look it up online. I think some people have problems believing this kind of lifestyle change is possible. And the reason is because they HAVE to, because otherwise they'd have no justification to continue on with their lonely, groveling, unfulfilling, wallflower lives.

That said, I have a theory in the book, and after reading the review, I'm curious, Tucker: How old were you when you lost your virginity?

The theory is that guys who are naturals and never have to think about this stuff lost their virginity at a young age (between 11 and 14) and guys who are unnaturals (like most of the unnaturals in the book) lost their virginity at a later age (18 on up to 21, 40, never). Anyone else here who feels that they're a natural (and isn't just posturing at being one -- I just met you all, and I know which ones you are), feel free to answer that here.

For what it's worth, during my research I did check out this site a couple times. A lot of the guys in "the community" recommended it.

As for the message that's been debated here, I think Joseph Campbell put it best in The Hero's Journey. To paraphrase:

One day you're living your ordinary life in your village and you get a call to go on a quest. That quest takes you through the dark forest, where you have to cut your own path. Along the way, there are battles, monsters, and various obstacles. But at the end of that dark forest, there is a gift -- enlightenment. And you take it, you bring it back to your village, and you use it to enrich your life and the lives around you. However, some people get lost along the way and never get out of the forest. They think the forest is the destination.

One guy here totally nailed it when he quoted Juggler's line about how I was searching for something outside myself that I'd eventually find inside. (What lets me know this board is the real deal is that you guys quoted the IDEAS, and not the TECHNIQUES.)

Anyway, amazing discussion, kick-ass review, great comments on The Dirt, and I'll be back shortly to respond to some stuff point by point. Thanks for getting me on the board, Tucker, and Jeremie is the man -- he's responsible for a lot of ridiculously successful books that I'm sure he's not too modest to tell you about.

[DaveJS]

As Tucker Max points out, it's been frustrating to read a lot of the reviews -- I mean, if they think the shit is made up, all they have to do is what KillerCam did and look it up online.


Before reading The Game, I heard that it was true. However, the circumstances you were in and the things that happened are so far out of what’s normal that I wondered how much of it was exaggerated until I did a little internet research.

If the book is only read superficially, it is likely that the reader will only consider the techniques and the strategies for picking up women. But since the pick-up community is just the stage and not the real message, I’m not surprised that a lot of people don’t think much of the book.

Combine these outrageous experiences with the misinterpretation that most readers will have, and I’m not surprised at all that most of the reviews are bad.

[Tucker Max]

That said, I have a theory in the book, and after reading the review, I'm curious, Tucker: How old were you when you lost your virginity?

It's kinda funny you break it down between those two age groups, and leave a middle ground, because I fall into that middle ground--I was 16 when I lost my virginity. This hot ass girl fucked me on my 16th birthday, and we fucked for like a week and then I dumped her like an IDIOT because I thought I had another girl on the hook. That didn't pan out, and I didn't get ass for another 4 months or something. Excruciating. After that it was a slow but fairly consistent flow--like a girl a month--until I kinda hit my stride around 20. I was still a dipshit then as compared to now, but I was pulling ass so at the time I thought I was a fucking king. I was so stupid then.

This is exactly how I would characterize myself though--not a "true" natural, but my natural ability is still way ahead of most guys. One of my best friends, "Junior" from The Vegas Story in my upcoming book, is the most insane natural I have ever met. He says the STUPIDEST shit to women and pulls more ass than anyone I have ever met or heard of (he lost his virginity at 13, I think). He is good looking no doubt and has a ton of confidence, but he just exudes this natural sexual aura about him that women just go nuts for. I know for a fact that he doesn't know what he's doing to get ass because he has all these absurd ideas about it that are just ridiculous...but he gets ass inspite of himself. He's the best. I'd put him up heads-up against Wilt Chamberlain or anyone else any day of the week.

I kinda grew up with him, hitting on women and being his wing, so after watching this guy I never considered myself a natural--I actually had to work at it and had to spit good game most of the time. Then I read your book and thought, "Holy shit, maybe I am more natural at this than I realized."

Even though I have total confidence in my game, your book did help me--it showed me that I have not analyized and systematically broken my game down as much as I thought I had. I do so much subconsciously that I don't even realize, and I thought I had myself totally figured out. A perfect example is this story (http://www.tuckermax.com/archives/entries/breaking_down_the_game.phtml) , that I wrote literally two weeks before reading your book. I thought I was completely ste-by-step exhaustingly clear about every aspect of the game, but after posting this I was FLOODED with emails asking for all kinds of clarifications. I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong...until I read your book.

EDIT: BTW, Thanks for stopping by. Welcome, and it's great to have you.

[Sweet]

The theory is that guys who are naturals and never have to think about this stuff lost their virginity at a young age (between 11 and 14) and guys who are unnaturals (like most of the unnaturals in the book) lost their virginity at a later age (18 on up to 21, 40, never). Anyone else here who feels that they're a natural (and isn't just posturing at being one -- I just met you all, and I know which ones you are), feel free to answer that here.

Welcome to the discussion. I loved the book.

Regarding your above theory, I think "losing your virginity" is just a component of the whole thing. The best natural I've ever known is a high school friend of mine who lost his virginity senior year in high school, right before he turned 18. BUT, he was a stud athlete, got a Division I football scholarship to a Big Ten school, great looking guy and everybody loved him. As a result, his ego and confidence was huge and he was able to use his status to get any girl he wanted when he got to college, without any canned pickup routines, or even much of a mentor of any kind.

As soon as my friend lost his virginity, his confidence went up. When he got to college, his confidence exploded. Now, its been 6 years since he got cut in an NFL training camp and he is overweight. He can still do incredibly well. He hangs out with a lot of NFL players, and does better than them, even though he makes $50 grand a year and they make $Millions.

Myself, I'm not that much different. Although I'm no pickup artist, I have a good amount of natural skill and have had good success (especially now, because I've hit the girlfriend jackpot and I'm now dating my own "Lisa Leverige"). I lost my virginity at 18. Like my friend, when I got to college I did well with women, which fed my confidence, which led to me doing better and better.

Maybe, however, my friend and I are different because in our high school there wasn't a significan stigma that went with still being a virgin in your late teens. Nobody would give my friend shit about it, because everyone still looked up to him.

It is possible that it depends on to what extent people are stigmatized at a young age for their lack of success with the ladies, that effects whether or not they can ever become a natural.

[DaveJS]

I just finished Neil's book and I agree with Thundercats review. The material is amazing, but I would have to say, it will not improve your game with women to the level you'll want. It's much too general. For a better guide on that checkout Art of Approaching, or Double Your Dating.

This is the last paragraph of the review from the Attraction Chronicles and it is a perfect example of people not understanding the book.

Did people even bother reading the last few chapters?

[Doc]

If i remember correctly, this was one of the points touched on in Sperm Wars, that studies had shown that the earlier you lost your virginity, the more sexual partners you were likely to have.

[Tucker Max]

If i remember correctly, this was one of the points touched on in Sperm Wars, that studies had shown that the earlier you lost your virginity, the more sexual partners you were likely to have.

Yeah, but that could be a reversal of causality. Instead of imputing the age of virginity loss with the cause of becoming a natural, you could just as easily say that because you are a natural, you lose your virginity sooner.

This is actually an interesting question, trying to tease the cause and the effect out of this relationship. There is no question that some casual relationship between the two, the question is what causes what? Maybe there is some larger cause of both?

[drinkupjohnny]

There are many, many positive reviews too. However, even some of those seem to miss much of what The Game has to offer. Since it's often wrongly percieved as just a how-to-pick-up-girls guide, reviewers may be reluctant to proclaim it as the groundbreaking examination of social interaction that it is.

[Uncouth]

All of Jeffries greasy behavior aside, one thing I found very interesting was that his massive insecurities are reflected in the very structure and philosophy of his seduction system.

While most of these seduction systems aim to present the seducer in such a way as to be attractive to his target so that she will choose to accept his advances, and remove bad habits and thought patterns that keep him from closing the deal, Speed Seduction seeks to remove that choice by hypnotizing the target. It's the ultimate example of looking outside when you need to look inside and obviously the product of a guy who believes deep down that no woman in her right mind would choose him.

[JonB]

Is the book going to become a movie? I think it would make a fun flick.

[toscaindub]

I read The Game about a month or so ago. It struck me not so much as people teaching others how to pick up girls, but rather about few folks trying to start a cult. I mean -- what are the basic steps to starting a cult?

Create a mystique. Give a story of how you've become enlightened.
Come up with a overly simple solution to a problem that the weak don't know how to solve for themselves.
Jargon. Give things names. Mystery Method, PUA, mPUA, AFC, AMOG, etc... this all gives a quasi-legitimate appearance of being technical or scientific.
Create levels. mPUA or PUA? Are you initiated enough to be let into the private message boards?
Teach people how to behave. Replace their ideas with your own.

Anyone with a familiarity of cult dynamics would notice the pattern at work. Mystery doesn't appear to have anywhere near as much interest in picking up girls as he does have in writing long tracts to impress his followers and further make a case for behaving how he instructs. He's just a more likable Jeffries, who is easier to spot in action simply because he's not as likable. Jeffries, with his laughable "science" of NLP backing him up and his hypnotic patterns, couldn't be more obvious, especially since he still lives at home with momma.

This all being said -- I really enjoyed the book. I just think anyone who reads it and decides to start getting into the pickup community and handing over $2500 to follow someone around for a couple days just doesn't have a clue. They've got so little "game" -- intrapersonal skills/self-esteem -- that they're being exploited, not helped. Papa was a robot making robots. Everyone wore the uniform, spoke the language, and recited the lines over and over again. And since even a blind squirrel finds the occasional nut, someone approching girl after girl and finally getting laid must have thought he discovered some magical formula. Not so.

And to make sure I'm not totally misunderstood, I'm not saying that Style is or was trying to start a cult. I think he may of had a moment when he was pulled in a touch by the strong magnetic personalities he was around, but that's only human.

Andon a completely different note -- threesomes are fucking easy to pull off. Granted, I live in San Francisco where people are sexually very liberal, and I'm sure my luck would be different in Kansas, but I'd guess that 50% of the girls who haven't slept with another girl are really curious to try it out. They're just nervous. Give them a setting to try it and play it off like it's no big deal and they'll quietly follow you down the path until the clothes come off and then you'll discover that you're just a sideline character for at least the first hour. Don't get frustrated that you're not the center of attention. Facilitate and step out of the way. Your turn will come; have no fear.

[RyanJM]

I agree with what people here are saying about Jeffries. That display was impressive, but only in a "look how fast I can score with 80 yr old grandmas" way. It might be interesting, but you don't really want to learn the ability yourself.

One random thought I remember having at the end of the book was "What the hell happened with Tyler Durden after Neil found out about his backstabbing?" I mean, if someone pulled the shit that he did while living in my house, I'd blow a fuse. Either Neil is much kinder than I am, or he didn't include that confrontation for legal reasons.

[Sweet]

II just think anyone who reads it and decides to start getting into the pickup community and handing over $2500 to follow someone around for a couple days just doesn't have a clue. They've got so little "game" -- intrapersonal skills/self-esteem -- that they're being exploited, not helped.
This is one point that has been made by many in this discussion that I disagree with. Look at Style: He was a total AFC, he went to a conference with Mystery, and a couple years later he emerged as a total stud, with all of his sexual adventures fulfilled and dating the girl of his dreams. Same with Sweater and, as Neil states in the first chapter, hundreds of others.

Was it ONLY the Mystery seminar that did it for them? Of course not, but they got some tools that sent him on the right path. Style and Sweater were smart enough to navigate that path correctly. As Style posted here earlier, not everyone successfully navigates that path. Someone who reads this book would not be a fool if they said to themselves afterword:

"I'm an AFC. I want to be learn how to do well with women. Mystery, though a very flawed person, can help teach me some things that would greatly help me with this at a conference of his. There are pitfalls, but I'm smart enough to navigate them, so I'm going to attend and pay for the conference to learn as much as I can, and also do the best I can to avoid the pitfalls and navigate the path properly. Hopefully my life can change for the better half as much as it did for Style."

Now, if someone reads the book and wants to go to a seminar led by Ross Jeffries or Papa and Tyler D., well, then I'd agree that they are a fool. Those guys seemed to suck.

[Unaccountable]

Neil, your book was one of the first books in a long time that I could not put down. Your writing style and ability to connect with the reader is excellent. I was also impressed with how brutally honest you are in the book about yourself and the other members of the PUA community.
I could write an incredibly long post making a number of points and also asking a lot of questions that I have but I will limit it to just a few.
There were a number of things that really hit home with me after reading this book. The first being the statement that you made which is that our parents and friends never gave us the tools to become social human beings. (I believed this was also mentioned earlier in the thread.) I know that myself and a great number of people that I know can relate to this and agree. It is a basic skill which was lacking in my upbringing and many other peoples that I knew as well. My parents gave me the ability to relate to other males, through sports and other activities when I was growing up but they never gave me the ability or any true guidance in how to relate to and attract females. It is something which I had to learn while going to college and still struggle with today.
Another point you made in the book which sticks out to me is how to deal with a beautiful women. Instead of constantly trying to show her why I have enough value for her to consider me it makes sense that I should make her show me why she is worthy of my or any males attention. And of course the most valuable thing which most beautiful women have to offer to a male in a social environment is sex.

A few questions that I would like to ask:

1. What has the backlash from this book been like among fellow journalists in your life. The review that Amy Sohn gave was I thought pretty harsh and narrow minded. I really don't think that she got the message that the book conveyed. (But I also remember her writing a story for Playboy years back were she basically went to LA for a few weeks to hook up with guys so I don't know why she would be critical of your PUA lifestyle.) Have you felt that other members of your profession react to you differently.

2. How about the PUA community itself. Has your relationship suffered with members of the community since you wrote the book. Most specifically Mystery. You seemed to have formed a genuine bond with him and to care about his success and well being.

3. Do you ever find yourself falling back into any of the games that you used to run on women in your relationship with Lisa.

[McCock]

I have been thinking of this for a long time, and I want to know how others feel about it. Maybe, we're all born with the tools we need to succeed with women. We're all naturals from the time we're born. However, social programming slowly causes us to lose a little bit of that each day. The difference then would lay in the amount a natural was deprogrammed as compared to a total AFC. What I'm getting at is the possibility that how much game you already have is a direct result of how you were taught with women and sex in general. Either by your parents, peers, whatever. A lot of these guys in the PU community become social robots, but maybe they were social robots when they were taught (incorrectly) about women.

Edit: Example would be a baby being able to swim at birth. It's an instinct that later becomes a taught skill. Could interaction with women be the same?

[(Z i M)]

I have been thinking of this for a long time, and I want to know how others feel about it. Maybe, we're all born with the tools we need to succeed with women. We're all naturals from the time we're born. However, social programming slowly causes us to lose a little bit of that each day.

I agree, although I think Tucker already covered that topic in a sense when he quoted this:

"As Mystery dissected the alpha male further, I realized something: The reason I was here--the reason Sweater and Extramask were here also--was that our parents and our friends had failed us. They had never given us the tools we needed to become fully social beings."

[JH 6]

I'll agree with everyone, great book, interesting characters, and a variety of good lessons the whole way through. Since it is clear that anybody with some intelligence can tell that this book is about the journey of growing as a person and not a guide to pick up girls, I'm not focusing on that.

What interests me is if Neil could have broken away from the community without Lisa. It is obvious in the book that he is recognizing the problems with the community and Project Hollywood, just look at the "Social Robot" post and all of his other comments. But even with all of this awareness, he had yet to step up and walk away. Mystery leaves the house, everything is falling apart, and Neil knows it is fucked up, but he continues to stick around. So I'm curious if other people think Neil would have left the community the way he did without Lisa as a catalyst. I think ultimately we can all agree that he leaves it with or without Lisa, but I believe it would have taken much longer for him to do so.

Just as an aside, I think AFC is the wrong term for most of the people who join the PUA community. The majority of these guys are not average, they are below average.

[McCock]

"As Mystery dissected the alpha male further, I realized something: The reason I was here--the reason Sweater and Extramask were here also--was that our parents and our friends had failed us. They had never given us the tools we needed to become fully social beings."

What I'm arguing is a conscious deprogramming and not just a neglect. If you were raised by a single mother, she may be making an extended effort to transform you into the exact opposite man who left her in the first place.

I wonder if being raised in a single family home headed by a father would transform someone's game. Any examples of people on here?

[CaptCapital]

Just as an aside, I think AFC is the wrong term for most of the people who join the PUA community. The majority of these guys are not average, they are below average.
I had some trouble with that distinction as well. Is there a middle ground between PUAs and AFCs (and all their related, but catagorically identical off-shoots)?

I had a big write-up on this, but posting it at this point would just be echoing the points and queries already presented. I also got the girl that I had been dating pretty seriously to read it. I'm going to try to get her to post her take on it. Women have, as far as I've seen, had a decidedly weak stance (either way) on this book. I'd love to hear from more of them from the board on it.

[Unaccountable]

Women have, as far as I've seen, had a decidedly weak stance (either way) on this book. I'd love to hear from more of them from the board on it.

I do not think that this book would especially hit home for most woman. The topic of relating to and picking up woman is one that is mostly unique to men. And the book itself is about how Neil/Style gained enough self confidence to be able to meet women and ultimately find one who he is satisfied with. Also I think that most women would be turned off by the idea that men are "tricking" them to get a number or get in their pants. The majority of attractive women do not know how to relate to having the fear of approaching a big group of guys at a bar, coffee shop, etc. To them being approached by a guy is an everyday thing so they do not analyze it or break it down. I would think that women who are not attractive or do not consider themselves attractive would naturally resent the emphasis that is placed on physical beauty by the PUA's and men in general.

I actually would love to hear from some women who have read the book as well. I wonder how they feel about the techniques employed. Whether the techniques would work on them. And what they think about the PUA's in general.

[Slutcakes]

I wonder if being raised in a single family home headed by a father would transform someone's game. Any examples of people on here?

I wasn't raised in a single family home with just a father, but I was raised by a father manipulated by my mother. Common phrases I would here from them would be "Always be a gentleman", "Buy her anything she wants" and "Make sure you open the door for her".

I do believe that everyone is subconsciously socially programmed in many ways and thus learn the hard way of how to correctly communicate with the opposite sex. Think about it, before civilization, the mating process for humans was no different of that for other animals. Today, the act of sex is still the same, but our advanced minds have constructed social barriers to the mating process.

[Uncouth]

The review that Amy Sohn gave was I thought pretty harsh and narrow minded. I really don't think that she got the message that the book conveyed.

She's insecure and threatened by a guy that doesn't have to grovel for affection from a woman. She states in the review that she dates nerds because they're grateful, which shows me just how threatened she is by a guy that has options. In her mind no options is good because she believes deep down that the guy would jump ship if he had the chance. It really connects with what I said about Ross Jeffries earlier in that she doesn't want the other person to have the choice to reject her.

I read her column, and the stories confirm that she's just a frustrated, insecure girl at heart. One column's story ran as thus: She throws herself at some emo-type tool. They fuck. She calls the next day and he denies remembering hooking up with her and tells her not to remind him what he did when he was drunk. She laments. The end.

Read her column and it's pretty easy to see that she hates the book because she can't accept the underlying message. She's a girl AFC.

[mayo]

Someone mentioned his D-1 football player friend as a natural. I think that’s a bit of a grey area. If I remember, Style’s best night, the night when everything was going his way, was the night when everyone thought he was Moby. I really wanted Neil to expound on the fame factor as it relates to picking up women. Style was the best PUA and handled his own against Heidi Fleiss, but would he have any chance going up against Brad Pitt? Vince Vaughn? Some boy band tool?
I would assume this falls into the “demonstrating value” section of the pick-up? How much of a factor does it play?
I also wanted to hear Tucker’s take on this. It has to be easier to get ass now that girls are emailing you to fuck.

EDIT: I know I am speaking in general terms. Some girls don't care about fame or money, but it plays at least a small factor with most.

As for the Mystery Method, I could never do it because of the damn peacocking. If I ever wore a top had with goggles and an LCD belt buckle, I would be forced to kick my own ass.

[Unaccountable]

Entire Post

I think that man or woman can get a lot out of this book. However, I think that many woman will not have an enough of an open mind to get as much out of it as guys do. Just like there are many books that are from a female perspective that most guys are not able to take anything away from. Obviously there are many exceptions to this rule.

As far as the PUA's do you or any of the other female members differentiate between guys like Style and Sweater who are trying to become the men that they want to be but need some help getting to that point. OR guys like Tyler Durden and Papa who seem to be social robots who are just pretending. Obviously they are all lost but some people need to turn to things or organizations described in the book to gain confidence and want the confidence instead of just wanting the attention and power.

Also do you or any of the female board members feel like the PUA techniques of negging, ignoring, etc. are a con instead of an actual representation of who the person really is.

[Beast]

Just like to touch on some random points that keep floating through my head...

1) The social psychological dimension of this book (not analyzing the various broken people that get stuck in this system, but the social dynamics it hints at) is absolutely fascinating... Not prescribing to a specific system, but I'd like to get an opinion on this nonetheless, what does everyone think about attraction in general? Are people as patterned as this book seems to purport (i.e. throw up some smoke and mirrors, get the girl in bed)? There's plenty of psychological research to attest to this; people more or less come from similar backgrounds (especially when regional constraints are taken into account) and seem to more or less have similar "wants" in life (being a regular reader, I have yet to here someone say that their life goal is to marry some fug they hate, work some shitty job and live in a trailer park). I kinda want to stay away from the field of "love" (because the really, the breaking point in the book is finding true love), and focus specifically on attraction...

2) I'd just like to reiterate and thank Style for this book specifically as a self help manual. Not as the "secret key" to unlocking a world of super-game, but as a model for going out and finding self-confidence and a willingness to fail in order to succeed. If citing memorized lines helps get guys to that point, more power to them. I know that after I read the book, the first thing I did was went to a bar and talk to people, and for that, at least, it was an amazing read.

[Profil]

I got two questions for you Neil if you see this.

1. What is all this about neilstrauss.com, the tele-conference that Thundercat is screaming about on his webpage etc? I don't believe it's true because of the answers in this thread, but to fake such a big thing would be stupid of him.

2. How do you react to these things if they aren't true?

Found a seminar in audio form from David DeAngelo, here are some soundfiles if you are curious like I, to hear what they sound like.

Twenty six at the DeAngelo seminar (the download is slow, couldn't fint anywhere else to upload it though):
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WOGN0KBS

Tyler Durden at the same place:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CMV8QT5Z

Mystery at the same place:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=N4K3J9UP

[DrinksOnTheHouse]

I read this book about a month or two ago, before the book club was announced and around the same time as the breaking down the game thread came on here. The latter part of the timeline is relevant because of how complementary and opposite those two pieces were for me. The whole point of the breaking down the game thread, at least in my mind, was showing that there is not some secret "formula" to getting a woman's interest, attention or sex; rather it is about knowing who you are, being comfortable with that person and most importantly showing the women why she would want to be with that person. The rest should flow naturally. However, that whole thread devolved into a question of percise mathematical formula, not understanding that a women is not going to be attracted to someone who can't even be comfortable or confident with himself.

I was leery of reading "The Game" for this precise reason. I had heard friends dicuss it as a pick-up manual, and how awesome some of the techniques were. I was not looking to read a guide of things to say, how to say them, and how to get a women to respond to inauthenticity; and the packaging confirmed to me that this is what the book was. Nevertheless, after a friend lent it to me, I read the first chapter, and became hooked. I started to understand, this book is actually a critique to what I assumed it to be.

That said, I really do like this book, and I would be repeating much of what has already been said to lay out my reasons. Instead, I will say this. I find it interesting that the sole person of the "sargers" going out was to pick up woman, and as Tucker notes, usually on yielding a pocket full of useless numbers that will never materialize into anything. Drinking was almost a taboo subject in the story. Mystery gets drunk at the end, and it is tantamount to suicidal. I don't recall much of any drinking.

I believe the main reason was the characters all needed to maintain as much control of each situation as possible and they each believed that alcohol would make them lose some sort of control. I also believe that is why many acted as these automatons, using the exact same lines with girls, the same routines, the same stories and flirts. Because if they had to improvise would require knowing himself better than he did, and expose him to great failure, embarrasment and loss of control. The asian dude gets Paris' number but does nothing with it -- afterall, it is one thing to converse with her and treat her like a cartoon cut out he does this with all the time, it is another thing to actually fuck her, hell he has not paid for those classes and has no miyage for that. And the same was true for Style at the beginning when he has no idea how to kiss a women. Personally, I enjoy drinking at bars. It seems like such an alien concept to go to a bar and not drink, akin to going to a casino and not gambling.

Style: I hope this becomes a screenplay, because it would be a truly awesome movie. For all I know it probably is in pre-production right now.

Also, as for the criticism of typing while having sex. I thought that made sense in terms of the overall story arc. To me, that chapter was sort of the climax, where style becomes bored with all that he has learned, and impending doom (setting up the hollywood project and its destruction coupled with mystery's emotional destruction) is around the corner. As a literary device, it made sense to me.

[affirmed]

Okay I really enjoyed the book but speaking as somebody who has read 'pick up material for a few years, casually, I have the following points to make:

1) Like the "Gurus" Style has an agenda too. Sure there are some people who aren't so 'rounded' in the community but his demonisation of tyler, for instance, is a little over-the-top. tyler is the personification of the demonisation of the community as a whole. Throughout the book pretty much nobody comes out unscathed... but is that fair?

If you wanted to build your muscles you'd talk with others who hit the gym and you'd ask for their tips and advice. You'd also have to GO OUT AND LIFT WEIGHTS.

This is what the community is for at a more basic personal level. Guys who aren't as good as they'd like to be with women talking with others to draw inspiration, to use tucker's term. It also breeds motivation because other's are doing the same thing and you can let people know where you're at and get feedback on that.

Style by his own admission came into the community a 'nerd' and out the other side with the girlfriend of his dreams and 2 years living the player's lifestyle which I know a lot of people would love to experience.


Now if you lack "inner" game to a large degree can the "community" help you with that? Probably not. You have to sort that out on your own. Just like if you have a poor self image you'll probably hit the gym for a few weeks and give up because "I'm not good enough".

But if you are a regular guy and you feel like your skills aren't where you want them to be what should you do? Why not talk to people who have some answers and get out their and try some shit? Whether "natural" or not people learnt to pick up by experimenting and drawing from others. Would tucker have had the success he's had without winging with naturals? Maybe. Would it have taken longer? Maybe.

With the commercial interests the "community" stops becoming a community and people's motives are called into question. www.fastseduction.com is a free site with a lot of free information. View it, filter it, try it out. If people are asking for your money, however, think before you act. That's just common sense.

2) Style... Loved the book. However to the guy who said the thundercat link was bullshit http://www.thundercatseductionlair....strauss_te.html I'm not really so sure. I know style didn't write it but I believe he has given Thundercat the go ahead to post that up and is involved. He talks about thundercat in his book as giving him "most powerful of the jedi" award.

Thundercat is the absoltue epitome of Snake Oil Salesman. By all accounts (style correct me if I'm wrong) he is Fat and can't pick up for shit yet he sells his own ebook proclaiming to be a Pick up Artist. Whatever.

Secondly. I'm hearing a lot about how routines are terrible etc. I'm mixed... I think they're a nice foot in the door but of course there will come a point where you need to fly solo... I just think you guys should know that despite Style being "out of the game" he still posts to Fastseduction.com here's an interesting piece of advice that will help people to be themselves:

http://www.fastseduction.com/masf/16/264531/

Posted a few weeks ago.

I think this is fine advice and like I said stuff like this can be fun to go out with and just help you over that initial nervousness it'll open the girls in the right way and then you can do what you like practise.

But if you think Neil wrote this book and "left the game" because everybody was "creepy" well that's just not the truth guys. The book is written like that to make it readable--Which it was, well done!

[thosegoldfishes]

http://www.fastseduction.com/masf/16/264531/

Posted a few weeks ago.

I think this is fine advice and like I said stuff like this can be fun to go out with and just help you over that initial nervousness it'll open the girls in the right way and then you can do what you like practise.

But if you think Neil wrote this book and "left the game" because everybody was "creepy" well that's just not the truth guys. The book is written like that to make it readable--Which it was, well done!




I'm not saying this definitely isn't Neil, but it seems to me that it isn't.


The email of the poster is cpowles100@hotmail.com and I don't think that is Neil's email.

[affirmed]

It definitely is Style. He's used that account on those forums since the beginning of his timeline he starts in his book. If you search you can find him posting when he was still anonymous. Hence C Powles I guess.

[Tucker Max]

The email of the poster is cpowles100@hotmail.com and I don't think that is Neil's email.

Its not the email that I use to correspond with Neil, but I am no expert on this subject.

[thosegoldfishes]

It is Chris Powles, whoever that is.

http://www.fastseduction.com/cliff/2001-12-27a.shtml

Sign up now by emailing Chris Powles at CPowles100@hotmail.com.

[maligpig]

[QUOTE=Tucker Max]Yeah, but that could be a reversal of causality. Instead of imputing the age of virginity loss with the cause of becoming a natural, you could just as easily say that because you are a natural, you lose your virginity sooner.

In my experience, there is no such causality. I lost my virginity at 15 and got laid quite a lot in high school. In fact, I would say that I probably pulled more girls sophomore year of hs than in any of my undergraduate years. I did not gain 200 lbs or stop showering in the interim. I probably did suffer a loss of self-confidence due to various personal dramas. I can say that I have other friends that lost their virginity at 16-18+ and are now far more successful at picking up women than I am.
On another note, the whole alpha/beta male dichotomy seems kind of false, as does the endlessly quoted "statistic" about 10% of the guys doing 90% of the fucking. Chris Rock is hilarious and his stand up does often have the ring of truth, but I don't think the situation is quite like that. Picking up women (in my limited experience, see above) isn't about looks, techniques, money or even confidence - it is about having the will to live out your fantasies and master your fear of failure and rejection. If you are shackled by self-doubt and self-loathing, women will smell this a mile away and will run the other direction. If you are honest with yourself about what you want and what you are going to do to attain it, your odds of success will increase dramatically.

[Tucker Max]

On another note, the whole alpha/beta male dichotomy seems kind of false, as does the endlessly quoted "statistic" about 10% of the guys doing 90% of the fucking. Chris Rock is hilarious and his stand up does often have the ring of truth, but I don't think the situation is quite like that. Picking up women (in my limited experience, see above) isn't about looks, techniques, money or even confidence - it is about having the will to live out your fantasies and master your fear of failure and rejection. If you are shackled by self-doubt and self-loathing, women will smell this a mile away and will run the other direction. If you are honest with yourself about what you want and what you are going to do to attain it, your odds of success will increase dramatically.

You are 100% wrong. That stat is anecdotal, but it is as true as any anecdotal stat there is. The reason that 10% do 90% of the fucking is BECAUSE only 10% have the traits you describe. You are creating a false dichotomy.

[maligpig]

You are 100% wrong. That stat is anecdotal, but it is as true as any anecdotal stat there is. The reason that 10% do 90% of the fucking is BECAUSE only 10% have the traits you describe. You are creating a false dichotomy.

Look dude, I am not disputing that some guys are better at picking up women and that those guys do more fucking. Whether the stat is 10/90 or 40/60 or whatever is irrelevant. The point I was trying to make was that, as you have said several times, it is more important to become the best possible version of yourself than it is to get bogged down with questions such as 'Am I an alpha or a beta?' and attempt to classify yourself according to the pickup scene jargon.
I have a friend that has had sex with far more women than I have, but has never slept with the same woman more than two/three times. I have far fewer partners but have slept with some of them hundreds of times. Which of us is doing 'more' fucking? Obviously, he is the alpha, by virtue of his impressive rap sheet. Nonetheless, I am not particularly jealous of this status because in my opinion he is lacking something in his sexual relationships. I am not trying to make a quality vs. quantity argument. I am sure there are nights when he has had more fun than me, and vice versa. My point is that it is less important to fit yourself into a designated 'alpha' role than it is to recognize what you want from women and then develop the skills to attain it - regardless of how you fit into the stats.
Sorry if the second paragraph was off-topic.

[affirmed]

Here's another recent post where he makes an interesting point. Notice the reply. The cynicism is because of the way style on one hand talks about the community on tv and in his book and on the other how he continues on the forum like normal posting occasional advice and being friendly whilst engaging in dodgy shit with "thundercat" on his website.

http://www.fastseduction.com/masf/34/260035/

Like I said, personally I love the guys writing style and he posts gold advice. but, contrary to tucker's view, I do not think his writing has a consistent "ring of truth" to it.

Anyone still debating the authenticity of the account can read here where he talks with the owner of the site "formhandle" (who is mentioned briefly in the book) about an issue regarding spam email being sent out about the book.

http://www.fastseduction.com/masf/34/257524/

[Underachiever]

You are 100% wrong. That stat is anecdotal, but it is as true as any anecdotal stat there is. The reason that 10% do 90% of the fucking is BECAUSE only 10% have the traits you describe. You are creating a false dichotomy.

I hate to kiss Tucker's ass on this point, but he's spot-on. I used be the non-laid 90% (puberty to about 22), then the 10% (22-28), now somewhere in between (at 31).

Another big reason that 90% of the guys are not getting any action is because they are sitting around bickering about what is takes to get women. The other 10% are doing. I've read Neil Strauss' book, tons of DeAngelo's stuff (and audio - he's not totally bad), and a million other related sources. None of it means shit unless you are willing to put yourself out there and try it.

Still, fuck all these magic techniques for picking up and seducing women. There are no shortcuts in life to taking real action and DOING. You can read all the books you want, but pussy will not show up at your doorstep just because you spent a shitload of time reading and thinking about other people's ideas...

[Tucker Max]

I have a friend that has had sex with far more women than I have, but has never slept with the same woman more than two/three times. I have far fewer partners but have slept with some of them hundreds of times. Which of us is doing 'more' fucking? Obviously, he is the alpha, by virtue of his impressive rap sheet.

You are totally fucked up with this--being an 'alpha' has nothing to do with racking up numbers. I know more than a few alpha males who are married and faithful, and many many betas who get a decent amount of ass. That stat has almost nothing to do with the alpha/beta dichotomy. In this modern world, being an alpha male is about being who you are and owning your world, not about the number of sex partners you have.

[jlaix]

But Tucker... you didn't say what you thought about MY chapter! :(

I'm a drunken, pussy-eating psychopath employed by two soulless, robotic sociopaths. It's funny because it's true.

Style calls me a "champ" on p. 238. Also funny because it's true.

-jlaix

**********************************************
"Wow! I'm my own little sister!"

[maligpig]

You are totally fucked up with this--being an 'alpha' has nothing to do with racking up numbers.


That is the point I was trying to make. I don't think we have a significant disagreement here. I agree totally with what you said about the importance of being yourself and owning your world.
I meant that post more as a response to the whole question of pickup artists - I have not read as much as some on this board regarding this topic but it seems pretty implicit in their approach that quantity IS what matters. It has been stated on this thread several times that these guys are searching for validation more than pussy. I would go so far as to say that many people, male and female, who feel compelled to seek out the maximum possible number of partners are seeking to fulfill their emotional needs - sex is just a means to that end.
As for the 'age of loss of cherry leading to later success with women' question, I think it would make a great topic for a new thread.

[Tucker Max]

But Tucker... you didn't say what you thought about MY chapter! :(

I'm a drunken, pussy-eating psychopath employed by two soulless, robotic sociopaths. It's funny because it's true.

Style calls me a "champ" on p. 238. Also funny because it's true.

Actually, what he says is that you are a "karaoke champ." There is a difference.

[laminatedgrandpa]

...being an 'alpha' has nothing to do with racking up numbers. I know more than a few alpha males who are married and faithful...

I've never seen Tucker say this before, and it just knocked me on my ass, although that might make me sound stupid. I would imagine most guys on here don't get that at all. I guess that just goes along with the book's idea that you're not really an alpha until you've moved beyond the whole game. Am I on the right track here?

[Gatling]

I am a slow motion version of Neil. It took me many years to get where he did in two years.

I'm short (5' 6"); bald; average looking; unsucessful with women for years. Last few years; rich conifdent lawyer, things change.

The insight which I believe Tucker now has, which is of most interest to me, is that he cannot possibly view playing the Game from the vantage point of guys like me. As Tucker has noted several times in this string, this explains his reaction to the (many) annoying questions from posters about a story which seemed clear to Tucker. Tucker's account of what happened with a given woman, and the things he said and did, while interesting in its own right, can only have limited relevance to guys like me. There is no benefit to breaking it down any further; and readers should stop asking.

Many women simply disregard, out of hand, guys that are short; average looking; bald etc. etc. The Game required to overcome these barriers far exceeds the distance travelled by Tucker when he went from getting laid regularly in his 20s to whenever he wants now.

The genius of the book the Game is that it provides an explanation of how guys like Neil and me can get women, and yet it is 100% consistent with the general themes articulated by Tucker all the time. I could no more pick up women trying to copy Tucker than I could any of the other purveyors of PUArtistry. But the message of the Game and Tucker -- confidence, success, etc. is real and meaningful. The trick is to stop resenting, envying, begrudging or (especially) copying guys like Tucker. Listen to his excellent general advice, read his accounts of seducing women with interest, but that's it.

If you are an average guy, here's what you can do in addition to the general themes of Neil and Tucker:

1. Exclude as many negatives as you can. Go to the gym; fix you teeth; get a good hair cut (or shave it); dress well; wear nice shoes; get a good watch. Then, forget about all that; its just you. (Don't think you can get away with basketball shorts and crummy shirts like Tucker; you cant.) I'm shocked at how many guys ignore this shit. I know, at times the lack of sucess with women causes you to think all this stuff's a waste of time. Its not.

2. Find something you are good at; and pursue it with ambition. (You don't have the luxury of being like the guy referenced in a prior post -- the fat, ex-NFL camp player making shit money but who's still nailing chicks; it is not fair but it is life. You'll finish ahead of that guy anyway.)

3. Be patient. If your not worried about women, opportunites will come; not as often as for guys like Tucker; but it will happen. The more you worry and try; the worse you will do.

4. Avoid strip clubs at all costs. I know; its tempting. It will fuck up how you deal with women. (Of course you can go for bach parties; I'm talking about regularly).

[Tucker Max]

I've never seen Tucker say this before, and it just knocked me on my ass, although that might make me sound stupid. I would imagine most guys on here don't get that at all. I guess that just goes along with the book's idea that you're not really an alpha until you've moved beyond the whole game. Am I on the right track here?

No. You can be an alpha and be knee deep in the game, or be an alpha and be out of the game.

What Neil said is that to win the game is to leave the game. I agree with that. It is a totally different thing than whether you are an alpha.

[Ryan Leaf]

Firstly, I think that any real opinion of this book is going to be greatly dependant on your life circumstances and your level of game, so I think I should point out here that I view my game as Mid Level; I have success, but still plenty to learn. Saying this, I think there is plenty to be learnt from this book and that people will absorb different lessons from it. Some will focus on implementing the techniques and others will understand the life message.

I nearly didn't read this book. I was so sure it was going to be a dubious step by step instructional manual full of techniques that a self professed pick-up artist used. At first I mistakenly flicked through the book without really reading the content. I looked at page 80, cringed and put the book down. Makeup? Magic Tricks? Sounded less like game and more like a desperate cry for attention. Thankfully, a week later I read it properly, and finished it in one sitting. It was very interesting; especially due to the fact I was only vaguely aware that such a community existed. Here are my thoughts, in no particular order;

Some of these techniques, such as 'neging' and ignoring are features of my game, and the game of some of my friends that have decent ability. I learnt this by observation and some trial & error. There is nothing wrong with learning this from a book or a workshop, however you miss out on the interaction and experience that comes from learning yourself.
At one point, Mystery says 'Believe it or not, the game is linear.' This is a very simplistic observation. Whilst at a base level it is true, with any interaction having an opening and hopefully a conclusion. One of the reasons I love the chase so much is because it is so dynamic; every girl is different and it can unfold different ways. I could never go into a conversation with anything more planned than an opening line, because flirting flows very organically and shouldn't be viewed as a set of mechanical steps.
I loved the character Extramask. Not only were his shenanigans hilarious, I also enjoyed his development and how the community affected him. He gained plenty of life changing confidence and also was able to eventually achieve a higher level of self awareness.
There is mention in the book that between the routines and tricks, the PUA's used 'fluff' conversation until they moved on to the next step. It strikes me that this 'fluff' is perhaps the most important aspect. Once you have a girls attention, the 'fluff' is where your personality really shows.
Ross Jeffries is scary. The NLP trick with the waitress turned my stomach. Hypothesizing that it was even feasibly possible, what type of self respecting person would try and use mind control and hypnosis to get in someone’s pants. If I had absolutely no personality, and had to resort to these depths of despair, I'd rather just pay for sex.
One of my favorite sections of the book would be Jugglers chapter. His writing style is simply fantastic, managing to be both eloquent and extravagant. My favorite quote would be The first thing you say to a woman matters very little. Some guys tell me they can't think of anything or they need a really good line. I tell them they are thinking too much. You are not that important. I am not that important. We have
never thought a thought so great that it needs to be wrapped with so much
care. Give up your need for perfection. As far as opening lines go, a grunt or
a fart is sufficient. I would definitely pay to read something by Juggler.
I wonder how the use of magic tricks etc is really perceived. Are you really demonstrating value, or are you simply becoming an idle curiosity?
An interesting experiment that would make a good thread would be to set out a bunch of people to use some of the techniques heralded by the PUA community and compare the success to what they usually get.
The give a man a fish/teach a man to fish analogy is apt here. However if a persons confidence is almost beyond repair, perhaps the concept of having a set routine really is the best opportunity to build confidence.

[Dennis]

As for the 'age of loss of cherry leading to later success with women' question, I think it would make a great topic for a new thread.

I am glad the topic of numbers came up. The whole concept of racking numbers to be alpha is flawed, you can be a douche bag singer with no backbone and get ass, or you can be rich and pull gold diggers. If you let others use you left and right (and women ARE using you for money or validation in this case), then you are probably not alpha.

Tucker had noted that by following the intent of just fucking a lot of people you end up fucking yourself up. Could someone expand on that?


To all the people openly criticizing these guys - look, when you grow up without a strong "father figure" to draw inspiration from, you have nothing to go by, hence a lot of guys, myself included, find themselves being much more reserved when things like RISK, WOMEN, and CONFIDENCE are involved. We just didn’t have anybody to slap us when we were being sissies. We didn’t have anyone to push us. We didn’t start growing our backbones until we got older and started learning about sexuality by observing our friends. Some never started at all.

I couldn’t get this shit together at 17. I didn’t have game, or, if I had some, it was stored somewhere deep inside. I had to catch up to my peers but didn't know where to start. That is when i typed "How to be good with women" into google. That is when I found the community. Let me clear something up - The "Seduction" community is more than described in this book. There are different schools of seductions that focus on different things. I was in one that valued Inner game over Seduction. I was constantly told that "It is YOU who matters the most. Invest time in YOURSELF, don't blow it on learning silly tips and tricks for deluding women" When i first heard about fastseduction ( seduction school Style belongs to), I thought it was ridiculous. I didn’t want to be a clown, I wanted to be my best self. However, there were things that seemed very cool about these guys – they constantly went out and practiced these things in real life, with real girls. There were a few lessons I’ve learned from them, and successfully used to attract girls.

3 years later, I cant fucking believe the difference. However, and I must emphasize this - Seduction is tricky. If you are a confident guy and read over some things to smooth out your game, I say go for it. However, if you are a 20 year old virgin who has never kissed a girl, I would recommend going a different way about it, otherwise you will end up where you began. Start doing things that strengthen your backbone by challenging and constantly pushing your limits - go hunting, play competitive sports, being to lift weights, use your brain for creative writing.. etc. Doing these things will give you a better perspective of who you are and what you stand for.
A lot of PUA's fail because they end up running out of material while gaming. This should NOT happen if you have game. You don’t rely on material when you have a backbone. You talk about Your life and use the material to complement some parts.

The reason these guys get fucked over in the long run is because in the structure of their worlds women are on the top of the totem pole. It isn’t about being healthy, having money or growing as a person. It is about women. And it is also the false path. Realize that YOU have to be in control of your world, otherwise all the tips and tricks will never amount to a damn thing.

[jlaix]

Actually, what he says is that you are a "karaoke champ." There is a difference.

Sez you. -shrug-

-jlaix

**********************************************
"Wow! I'm my own little sister!"

[JonoJohnson]

Sez you. -shrug-

-jlaix


even a post like this, and the other one asking why Tucker didnt give him props... you see... these guys were just dorks deep down "sez you -shrug?"
Take lessons and ideas and thoughts from the Game, but like has been said a lot of times on this thread, when push comes to shove, youre gonna just be yourself when all the routines run out...

[Swa Charley]

while I totally agree that Ross Jerreries and tyler durden are the worst type of scum around,
I think that mystery deserves more credit.

He seems like he just figured it out too well, and because of that he dehumanized himself.

But he dosn't hypnotize girls into having sex with him, and he isnt motivated solely by power, using people only for their techniques.

While the book made people like Papa Tyler and Ross Jefferies sound like scum, It left me sort of admireing while at the same time feeling bad for Mystery

And im probally mistaken but the impression that I got of David De Angelo was that he is just a really smart buissnessman looking to make a buck or two.
EDIT
note that I might be biased towards mystery because I have always liked magic
( yes I know im a geek)

[11Red]

(My first time reading Tucker Max, haven’t read the book yet either.)

The first page of this thread is spot on! Everything said there and the quotes chosen are great. They ring so close with what i beleive that I just had to speak up!

My 2 cents:

There is some confusion in this discussion about being somebody who knowes who he is and takes from life what he wants and fucking lots of women or having lots of experience with women. One CAN be without another.

You can be naturally attractive to women and have little game experience.

Naturals learn how to be more effective with women over time, just like everybody else does.

[Tucker Max]

(My first time reading Tucker Max, haven’t read the book yet either.)

Am I reading this right? You haven't read any of my stuff OR the book we are reviewing? What the fuck are doing here then? If you haven't at least read Neil's book, why the fuck would you post? THIS IS A THREAD TO REVIEW AND DISCUSS HIS BOOK, not a place for you to spout off about whatever.

[porkman]

After finishing this book, I sympathized with Neil, but, strangely, I also felt some affinity for Tyler. I believe that he is one of the scariest people I’ve ever heard about, but I could see where he was coming from. All our lives, nerds are told that being smart will lead to happiness and riches, but it doesn’t usually pan out.. I think that when Tyler got into the community, he finally saw a way for his intelligence, (his analysis was scary) to fulfill all these promises he’d felt cheated out of. He’s not a garden variety social robot like all the disciples. These guys are harmless and might eventually make it out and become better people. This is a nerd analogy but Tyler is the fucking Borg. He sees someone with game, he analyzes and assimilates them, and then destroys them. In the context of Neil’s analogy, Tyler is not only lost in the woods, he’s waylaying travelers and making it a bigger and scarier place.

A lot of people have been talking about the PUA's trying to turn personal interactions into a video game. The observation is correct but it's only coincidental. What they're trying to do is turn a social interaction into a closed system where they know all the steps, variables, and outcomes. They need the illusion of control before they take any risks.

These guys, like me, are nerds. I try to figure things out analytically. I try not to enter arguments where I'm not at least 80% sure of what I'm talking about. I don't take risks on a whim. I'm probably similar to a couple of these guys in that I got my validation during high school by being a smart student. Pickup Gurus and Axe commercials prey on nerds by convincing us that they can turn interacting with women into a simple mechanical process that creates the desired outcome.

This works because nerds aren't used to not understanding something. I don't get scared by tests or schoolwork, but social interactions sometimes bring up deep unreasoning fear. For example, during my freshman year at college, I met this girl who lived a floor below me and we seemed to get along. Later, I was feeling bored and thought about going to see what she was doing. I stepped outside and I essentially had an anxiety attack. I had this fear of rejection. This wasn't she might not sleep with me fear. I was just sure that I'd go down there and the conversation would drag and it would be awkward.

The problem was one of knowledge vs. belief. I knew she wasn't lying when she asked me to come by sometime. But I didn't believe it. On a subconcious emotional level, I didn't believe that I was capable of holding this girls interest. Hence the fear. I had to force myself to call her. I did, though, and she became, and remains to this day, one of my best friends.

I don't really have a good segue here so I'll just say it. I think there are sort of three loosely defined states of being when it comes to interacting with the opposite sex or even people in general.

1. Ignorance. If you haven't been born with a bunch of self confidence, you're here. All you know is that you want women. You have no idea what to do or what to say socially. Neil starts out at this stage. He knows he likes girls but has no idea of where to begin so he goes to Mystery in order to gain...

2. Knowledge
I agree with everyone on this board who said that Mystery didn't have it, but that's besides the point. I define knowledge as knowing, intellectually, the secret of getting women, i.e. there is no secret just be the best you can be and it will shine through. Neil wanted to learn the secret of getting women. The ironic part is the lines and routines are not actually what I would call knowledge. They were part of the dark forest that he had to slog through before coming out the other side. The things that he was taught that were actually useful, (how social interactions work, what , etc.) are parts of having knowledge. But those are tiny compared to what he eventually has to find out for himself. He doesn't, as Tucker would say, get it until late in the book. Now some of the nerds like me, who've read this book and the advice page on this site, are saying, Ok, I get the whole self confidence deal. I'm not going to become a robotic tool like some of these guys. Yet, my life remains unchanged.” The difference between knowing that self confidence is what is needed and actually having it, is immense.

3. Belief. This is the problem. In my mind, I know that I should have faith in myself, that being rejected doesn't matter, that I shouldn't care what other people think, and all the true things that people have said to me. The problem is, I don't believe them. I haven't internalized these things emotionally. Sometimes it's hard to shake the feeling that I'm inflicting my company upon others. Of course this belief is sort of self fulfilling. Neil becomes a better person and believes it which ultimately makes him what all the techniques were trying to imitate, but by that time he know longer cares.

Since this is already sounding like a sociology thesis I'll finish with a conclusion. Belief is having true self confidence, Knowledge is knowing that self confidence is what is needed, but not actually having it. Ignorance is not knowing anything. These are very overlapping categories. For example, most of the PUA's are trapped in between knowledge and ignorance. And they'll never get to belief because they think that knowing how to act like an alpha male is the end. Knowledge is no substitute for belief.

This isn't meant to be authoritative, universally true, or any such crap. It's only a way to see these personal transformations that I came up with after reading the book. I find it interesting and kind of want to expand the idea, but I'm not quite sure how.

Just a last little bit, before I go. I once talked my old biology teacher in highschool after I'd graduated. She said, "Oh it's so weird there's this kid who's a lot like you, young for his grade, kind of small, but very smart.”
Me: Well, of course he's smart.
Her: What do you mean?
Me: Can you imagine how hard his life would be if he was small, young and an idiot? We have to be smart, because, if we're stupid we've got nothing whatsoever going for us.

[wanger]

No. You can be an alpha and be knee deep in the game, or be an alpha and be out of the game.

What Neil said is that to win the game is to leave the game. I agree with that. It is a totally different thing than whether you are an alpha.

Tucker is exactly right here. It's not about the quanitity of pussy you get that makes you an alpha male. It's the type of person you are that defines whether you are an alpha or a beta. Here's an example: my best friend in middle school and high school was an alpha male. He was the type of guy that people are drawn to because of his extraordinary self confidence. These are the type of people that don't give a shit about what anyone says or thinks about them, and are so confident in themselves that it instills confidence in those that are close to him - like a natural born leader. Males and females are magnetically attracted to these qualities. Getting pussy is just a byproduct of having these alpha characteristics. It's not what defines it.
This may have already been discussed, but I'm drunk and I want to rant. Coming from a self professed beta male, I just want to point this out to others who might be confused about what is the difference between an alpha and a beta male. Though I've been reading this site for a long time now, I've never felt the urge to post until now, probably because this topic and book has really hit home for me. I used to think, I could be more successful with women and all other area aspects of life by just mimicking alpha males, but I've realized that that is only a temporary solution. It has to come from within and it starts by believing in yourself. Let me know if you want background past details n shit because I have so much I can write about, but I don't have the time right now.

[crispybucket]

The reason I was here--the reason Sweater and Extramask were here also--was that our parents and our friends had failed us. They had never given us the tools we needed to become fully social beings.

This hits on an issue I've been thinking about off and on for awhile now: What other skills aren't being taught? What should parents, peers, society, etc teach young people that they're not teaching? (I have serious doubts about many schools being able to teach these things but that's another issue.)
What would be the curriculm a young person should have to successfully go out in the world and live life? I have my own answer to this question but I won't bother listing them since they're particular to my circumstances and history. (This is the problem of advice: People often given the advice that they would have wanted to get at the time they were in your position but they don't realize that the you are NOT them. You have different preferences and expereiences and your situation is different. BUT advice can be so useful because it can prevent you from repeating mistakes among other things. This problem is especially acute with the advice parents give their children.) I think there are some skill gaps that are fairly common and they provide an opportunity for enterprizing folk: see the huge amount of financial illiteracy and all the material around that aims to fill that gap. (Quick question who is the Tyler Durden of the personal finance community?) There are other areas that also provide business opportunities for the entrepreneurially minded.

Key among these missing skills is the ability to be fully social as Strauss points out. I think this has vastly increased over the last few generations. The breakdown in families, a more rapidily changing society, more people moving more often, the vast increase in technology have combined to produce many more people who are, and more importantly, FEEL isolated and unable to talk to others. This shows up in the statistics on depression in which the rate of depression in the population increased approximately 10 times for people born after World War II. And as societies become more Westernized the rate of depression rises. But forget the stats, imagine this scenario: You're a young kid whose parents may have split up; you've been moved a couple of times so you don't have any long-standing adults around like teachers, grandparents, other family to guide you; you're unhappy and don't have anyone to talk to; you escape the world of people and take refuge in the world of video games and computing; you can fully control these things, they provide you a sense of mastery and since there aren't a bunch of adults who know you around and keeping up with you, no one calls you out for withdrawing from the social world and tries to help you with mastering it. Well, guess what, you're missing out on all the knowledge and experiences you need to have to be a "fully social being." Then at some point when you're 16 or 19 or 23 you come across the "community" and it seems like the answer to your prayers. That's the recipe for the huge number of socially clueless people emailing Tucker, posting to his advice board, and joining the "community." And no surprise they're so prevalent on the Internet.

Hell, technology has so much reduced the need for human interaction that we can easily go a week without really having to talk to people. Especially if you have a computer job. I myself ordered this book from Amazon but what if I actually gone out to Barnes and Noble, looked for the cutest girl working there and asked her to help me find the book. I could have flirted with her and very possibly gotten further (ala Tucker and the Target story-- and note this is NOT being a robot but taking the spirit applying it). This book and the subject provides dozens of "openers" to get her attention. Unlike a poster above, I think the analogy of the pickup people to video gamers is more than coincidental. If a formative part of your youth has been spent playing video games solely (not video games along with other social interaction) then you are thrilled to see interacting with women as another game, another thing to take apart and master. Because being real with people and with women is scary and might bring all sorts of unpleasant emotions. Especially if you've been avoiding it for years. No, best to learn a routine and follow it then all the ickyness of who you feel you really are can continue to stay buried and covered up.

Well, it's very late and though I have more to say (and damn it I forgot to work Hayek and the idea of tacit knowledge into what I was writing above about the changes in society and the decline in social skills) I'll have to come back later. I just want to tell you Neil, if you're still reading this that I greatly enjoyed the book and I am curious what would you recommend someone do today if they are in the position you were in when you started? Sadly, I suspect that your book and the story you portrayed are so seductive that a lot of guys will be sucked into the "community" and miss the point of the book and, in fact, we've already seen examples of that in this thread.

[CountMockula]

Whatever, dude.

Actually, some of the discussion here, especially criticizing 'technique' vs. 'finding it within yourself,' corresponds to the 'PUA' concepts of 'outer game' vs. 'inner game.' If you're starting from zero, it's not completely obvious which one is better to begin with, in spite of some recent exhortations.

To take an example from a less sketchy area of life, AA and other 12-step programs suggest that the 'technique first' i.e. fake it until you make it, can actually help nudge people along the road to finding that inner strength.

Similarly, threesome technique advice can help me fake it until I make it with my girls, until I completely internalize that I am a majestic sex god.

PS Anyone looking for interesting technique reading should download TylerDurden's PDF archive from fastseduction.com. He may be a monster, but he's a very smart monster -- probably the only genuine intellectual involved with it all (though a lesser writer than Strauss).



ROBOT! You fucking social robot!

But seriously, are you asking about it so you can learn from it and use it, or because you have some odd desire about the sex life of the individual concerned?

If it's the former, then you've taken nothing from the book and the subsequent discussions about it. If it's the latter, then good for you. You're another one of the messed up / interestingly perverted people on here.

[affirmed]

Tyler gets a ton of shit in the book and subsequently this thread. Just to put another spin on it because in my mind it doesn't wash quite like that.

- Tyler is analyitical "a nerd" yeah? So he breaks things down into small chunks and learns from that. For him and many guys on these forums that is how they learn best. obviously if you never leave the house and marry that information with actual experience nothing will come of it.

- In the book Tyler comes in for shit however apart from Style Tyler has had nothing but praise in the community. Hundreds of people have met him at seminars and other puas have hung with him. In fact he's hung with pretty much every name in the industry, nobody has a bad word for him except in this book. I have talked personally to people on msn who know him and say he's just a normal guy who is great fun to hang with. Contrary to what Style says by all other accounts Tyler is INCREDIBLE with women and has done the most insane shit.

- Tyler isn't a drone. Maybe the people who blindly copy him are but I have read his posts. He does not tell people to do that. It is what happens when you get 'followers' looking for an exact fix. The kind of mentality that seeks this information out is often the kind that ends up mimicing things so exactly. Style talks about people trying to copy him exactly in the book. It's not the teaching it's the people. Tyler has come up with some very innovative things in his time that people have adopted all over the world. Say what you like about the guy but the area he's chosen to specialise in he has owned.

- Mystery and Style are BEST FRIENDS. I have seen Mystery in a Deangelo seminar I downloaded off Shareaza which was recorded in the last three months. In it Mystery refers to his "Best Friend Style". Style and Mystery toured the world promoting the book TOGETHER. Although Mystery is flawed in the book, he comes out of it a lot better than the other 'gurus' despite, in my mind, way more destructive behaviour.

- Mystery runs a COMPETING BUSINESS to Tyler and his RSD peeps.

I ask you, enjoy the book but without getting a full picture I think it's weird how quick people are to call shit on people. Everyone has issues, including Style and just because a book wraps everything up nicely with a good guy and a bad guy I'm sure there are plenty of shades of grey in all of this.

My $0.02

[Smack]

http://www.cliffslistconvention.com/

Scroll down to bottom of the page to watch.

[rockyV]

Tyler is analyitical "a nerd" yeah? So he breaks things down into small chunks and learns from that. For him and many guys on these forums that is how they learn best. obviously if you never leave the house and marry that information with actual experience nothing will come of it.

I understand that many people learn from breaking things down into small chunks. The problem is that the material they are learning is flawed.

The techniques themselves are not bad. I read some of the forums after I read the book, and I realized that I do many of the things they talk about. I just never had a name for them or openly discussed them. The flaw is the idea that you can just keep throwing out these techniques, and girls will bite on it.

Here's an example: the "neg". I only do this because it is consistant with how I act in everyday life. I call out people who say and do stupid things, including any girls I might be talking to. I have used with success lines such as "you look like a man" and "you're a dirty whore" within seconds of seeing/meeting a girl. In the context* of the situation, they were actually funny things to say.

This is different than me talking to a girl while thinking, "I have to neg her soon or else she'll think I'm intimidated by her." In the first case, it was my natural reaction to the situation. Now, I'm just looking for an opening to use this technique. I've had female friends tell me countless stories about awkward neg comments they have received as a result of this line of thinking.

I'm using this example to demonstrate that many of these techniques are the natural results of confident people saying what comes to mind. If that confidence isn't there, it will soon become apparent.

*Context:
I'm at a crowded bar getting a drink, and I see one of my friends and yell out, "HEY WHASSUP MAN?"
Random hot drunk girl next to me: Did you just call me "man"?
Me: Yeah, you look like a man

I'm in Dublin, and this American girl keeps getting harrassed by a drunken Irishman. I walk up to her, put my arm around her, and he goes away.
Her: Are you really an American?
Me: Where are you from?
Her: Jersey
Me: I'm American enough to know that you're a dirty whore.

[Uncouth]

In the book Tyler comes in for shit however apart from Style Tyler has had nothing but praise in the community. Hundreds of people have met him at seminars and other puas have hung with him.

That's because there are few people in the community good enough to be a threat to Tyler. In the book, Strauss said that Tyler likes to rise by eliminating others. Strauss and Mystery were two of the best, so Tyler copied their personalities to sell and tried his best to fuck them over. To the others he needs to appear to be an awesome guy so he can sell them on seminars.

[Sharts]

Neil,

You didn't address a question of mine in your book, and while I am only 120 pages or so into it, I sense you don't touch on this later on in the book, either. If you do, my apologies.

Here’s the thing: Even before jumping into the whole PUA lifestyle, you were STILL Neil Strauss. You weren’t some middle management schlub, some dolt investment banker, some out-of-touch lawyer or some waiter with acting aspirations. I think you gloss over and/or don’t even get into who you actually are. You are an extremely talented writer and journalist and hence HAVE to be good with talking and dealing with and probing and listening to people.

You started working at the Times in your early 20s as a music/culture critic - that’s the equivalent of being an NBA lottery pick as a high school senior - and have been around some of the most famous and most successful people in the world. Shit, isn't "I write for Rolling Stone" a great pick-up line and then tell a little celebrity story enough to get laid? But that's not really my point. I understand low self-confidence is a killer. Shit, I used to watch an NBA player and an NFL player who should get laid by just being in a room strike out all the time with incredible levels of horrid game.

But, anyways, I am meandering more towards my point. You’ve slept in the same bed as Jewel, you’ve spent a significant time with Courtney Love and made sense out of her and you penned Jenna Jameson’s biography and got her to reach deep down into a place where she revealed things to you that she never told anyone else.

My point in all of this is that women have always gotten you. You’ve been able to talk and listen and cajole some of the most famous women in the world to open up to you. It’s obvious your journalism background makes you great at holding conversations and listening to people and drawing things out of them and making them comfortable around you.

Now, I am not doubting that your take on your struggles with women in the past were accurate. So I guess my question is this … do you think unleashing yourself and turning into one of the world’s best PUA’s was MORE about you being confident enough to apply the skills you have as a great writer/journalist into picking up women than actually learning the PUA tricks of the trade? I can see how these things aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive, but at the same time I can see them being mutually exclusive.


Complete random aside: Did you know Noah Baumbach when you went to Vasser? If so, what was he like and what’s your take on his career?

[affirmed]

Rocky V - Agreed. But you really have to understand the place some people are coming from. It's like what Tucker said he couldn't even UNDERSTAND the questions the guys were asking it was so alien to him that people wouldn't just 'get' it. A lot of this breaking down stuff is of a lot of help to guys who are a LONG WAY BEHIND because it forces them to see things differently and go out there and try things they would never try. The "negs" might come off awkward at first but if they're smart enough to calibrate the results and do things that feel right for them it's an excellent way to improve. I mean a lot of guys have their lives generally together except for this area so to go out and say 'get confidence and it'll all flow' well the fact is that to feel comfortable with women you're going to have to spend time around them and a lot of this stuff really does help guys do that.

Obviously you have to complement it with using common sense. But I do agree with what you posted.

Uncouth - Yeah. Maybe. But that is according to the book. People have agendas. if you're willing to believe that one man (tyler) could fool hundreds of people into thinking he was a cool guy who was great with women (including guys who 'get it' themselves) then surely you can believe that somebody (style) could exagerate somebody's "darkside" if it was in his business and narrative interests to do so.

[affirmed]

Maybe I'm fucked in the head but that post seemed pretty honest and interesting. The guy has enough self-awareness to know when he's feeling down and where these emotions come from. He has the guts to push through those emotions and by the sounds of it he's pretty fucking balsy.

I'm not being funny man but for guys who aren't that confident or well built or tall or who dont' have groups of military friends or maybe lack ANY friends who even enjoy going out and hitting on women this stuff makes a lot of sense. Having an alpha natural guy come up and demean you is a very real thing that happens and this advice will work a lot of the time. Obviously use your own material but the principles are solid.

Tucker said this stuff was dumb earlier and that he can spot it a mile off and is able to deal with it easily because he's extremely good at incisve put downs... well hello... What tucker does is just HIM amoging the other guy. It's not some crazy science it's just the fact that in a situation sometimes people struggle for dominance. Because Tucker is an experienced alpha guy he does this stuff naturally... not everyone does.

I thought that was a bad example of a post that makes him look like a dick. Over analysis? maybe. But some people have analytical personalities. Especially if these things dont' come at all naturally.

[Eastie]

Some simple rules:

1. FLAT OUT: Do not post if you have not read the book.

[Unaccountable]

sorry if this was slightly off-topic, but knowing neil was learning from guys like this and managed to succeed makes me want to read this book even more.

Read the book before you comment. Neil did not learn from Tyler. Tyler learned from, studied and broke down Neil/Style's game.

For those Tyler defenders who have posted I do not know anything about Tyler and am only making my comments on him from how he is portrayed in the book. I do not think either Tyler or Papa are horrible people. And when the comment is made that they are social robots it comes from the portrayal in the book. I think that I consider them social robots because they are pure PUA's. They use the methods to pick up and number close. From the book that is really all they offered to their conquests was their pick up techniques. Style and other members of the community used the techniques to meet and then let their own personalities come through. I mean what woman would not love to sit down and shoot the shit with a guy who writes for Rolling Stone, be interested in someone who has such amazing abilities in the field of illusion like Mystery or a person with obvious charisma like Juggler.
Whereas these guys could use parts of their own personalities to get a woman after meeting them the guys like Tyler and Papa really focused on sticking to a script.
One thing I also realize with Tyler and Papa is that they came into the community at a relatively young age. They did not have life experiences that Style or others had. Of the negative things that Tyler and Papa did in the book many were things which while not fair were things that could be explained away by being a relatively younger person.
Also it could also be that Tyler and Papa may have matured since the events of the book have taken place and become more comfortable in their own skin much like Neil did and that is why they have such a devout following and are so well liked in the community.

[ybatman]

The way I see it. You need ALOT of work to have a STRONG foundation like Tucker said in the review. I meet Neil a at one point. He is a cool guy and great with women. But i never knew what made those changes so quickly. Yes...it took alot of hard work but something that Neil did that I believe helped him the most was Building that strong foundation. When he got hipnotized and bombed with NLP patterns, he was pretty much helped in a big way. Most guys can´t or wont do this. He had Mystery and Ross Jeffries fighting over him. He had inner game work done on him that many guys dont have. He had the best "PUA" at his disposal to work on himself. Get all the innner believes that work for him and the balls to act on them.

[jlaix]

There are a few main objections people have to the idea of "studying pickup"

They are:

1-The belief that people have a natural entitlement for who they are, and they should not seek devious means to outstrip it.

2-The belief that women are vulnerable and incapable of knowing whether or not a man is genuine, and an implicit view that women do not enjoy sex as much as men.

3-The belief that there could exist some technology or actualization of the urban legend that a devious nerd could be transformed into a womanizing havoc wreaker.

4-The belief that by virtue of our common humanity that being able to know another person's authentic self is valuable, and that any deliberate endeavour to change oneself is inorganic and contaminating.

5-The belief that the way society tells us to live is good, and anything that falls outside of that is threatening.


And my responses to these would be:

1-All people have good and bad qualities. Pickup is about bringing out the good qualities and moving away from the bad, so that you become someone who is more worthwhile.

2-Women are phenomenally intuitive, and hardwired to pickup on men's phoney attempts. A woman will always be appreciative of a man who can express his sexuality in a way that is intriguing and without making her feel pressured.

3-There is no way to change a damaged person into a don juan without making fundamental changes in him that people can respect and admire. Learning pickup is about making those fundamental changes, and finding ways to convey your personality that are exciting and make you stand out.

4-Change is always something that is always happening whether we like it or not. It can be active or passive, and we can sit back and react to it as it occurs or take a hand in proactively guiding it in a worthwhile direction. Learning to be better with women is not about learning ways to compensate for shortcomings. It is about learning how to develop yourself in an authentic way and how to convey it, which is something that women respond to.

5-Much of what society tells us is good is in fact harmful. Whether it is unhealthy fast food or unrealistic standards of beauty, the way we live always needs to be contemplated not only on the advice of society, but under our own consideration. We need to think for ourselves.

-jlaix

**********************************************
"Wow! I'm my own little sister!"

[porkman]

I hope I'm not the only one who felt a little bit of Schadenfraude when Tyler described AMOGing. Some people seem to be upset by it because it goes against the natural order of things. Remember the name of Tucker's next book, Assholes Finish First? More than a few alphas are also assholes. This is why Tyler Durden invented it. This is his revenge on what he saw as the unfair ordering of society. I, for one, will contend that a few of the people who get AMOGed probably deserved it. I dislike Tyler's methods and approach for the same reasons I dislike all the PUA stuff, it's contrived and this close to telling baldfaced lies for personal gain. Tyler invented AMOGing so he could beat Alpha assholes at their own game. Of couse as everyone says, this is a false idol because the trick isn't beating other peoples game, it's moving beyond the need for one.

I don't think anyone should doubt that AMOGing works. As everyone has said, most alphas don't conciously realize what makes them alphas. They push-pull and neg without realizing it because these behaviors are subconscious and instinctual. The problem with instinct is that it's not nearly as adaptable as conscious thought. This is what AMOGing counts on.

An analogy would be if social dominance was a wilderness. An alpha would be a wolf, an instinctual effective hunter. An AFC would be a human, soft, fleshy and ill equipped to survive. In a direct competition, the wolf wins every time. The PUA methods for AMOGing are the equivalent of making spears and laying traps. Instead worrying about the wolf, let's just go out there and kill it, and they do this by making the instincts of the alphas work against them.

Case in point, there is a kind of wolf trap where a sharp knife is covered in deer blood and left out to freeze. The wolf comes over and licks it, cutting his tongue. His instinct is to keep licking the fresh blood and he does, cutting his tongue more and more until he bleeds to death.

Very few wolves are smart enough to see the trap and stop licking.

Most of what alphas do is subconscious. For example, I think they see IOI's unconsciously and that filters up to their concious brain as, "this girl's into me." When an Alpha gets AMOGed, I'm sure they sense the social dynamic turning against them, so they react instinctually. The problem is Tyler's program is built to deal with their instinctual responses. They'll probably get killed and won't realize how it happened until after they're "dead."

Of course, Tyler's program isn't unbeatable. If someone is conscious of what's happening and can break their own program they could take it out. His entire approach to being a PUA is figuring out what people are going to do and then creating lines and routines that use their interspersonal scripts to work for him. This is how he neutralized Style and Mystery. I'm guessing a way to beat an AMOGer would be to to realize that treating this person as a lesser competitor is playing directly into their hands and then do something entirely different.

P.S. I don't think all or even most alphas are assholes. Being an alpha is is having self confidence. Unfortunately there is a very fine line between self confidence and being an arrogant prick. Before anyone thinks of sending me negative points about the whole asshole thing remember this quote from the buttsex story, ": As I stand right now, 27 as of this writing, I am a bad person. At 21, I was possibly the worst person in existence. I had no regard for the feelings of others, I was narcissistic and self-absorbed to the point of psychotic delusion, and I saw other people only as a means to my happiness and not as humans worthy of respect and consideration. I have no excuse for what I did; it was wrong and I regret it."

I also don't want this post to be contrived as saying that alphas are generally stupid. I'm just saying that they're not likely or used to viewing or anlyzing social interactions on a conscious level.

[bigdt2386]

I say sorry in advance for how crappy this may be I am writing this at work.

I randomly picked up the book at barns and noble about a little over a month ago while on the phone making fun of it. Little did I know what was about be unleashed. As soon as I got off the phone and actually started reading it, I was hooked. The book is great, some slow points but over all, AWESOME. I read the book in roughly three days, it's addicting.

I have read the shitty reviews that some people gave it and unlike every one on this site, they just don't get the point behind the book. All those people only see it as some lame book to pick up girls, when in reality it is so much more.

After I finished reading the book I went to see if this was all for real and to my amazement it was. I started reading some of the shit on that pick up 101 site but realized it was shitty. Just like the book says as a whole, you can learn all the shit you want but if you don’t have any inner qualities you’re fucked. So I stopped reading that shit and just continued on the path I've been on, being my self. If you don’t have self worth none of that will get you any where.

Great book, I have already forced 5 of my friends to buy it.

[Amory]

-The part at the end of page 415 is very prescient, and exactly what I have been talking about, where he describes Mystery crying about not having a Miyagi, and then Neil Strauss says this:
Quote:
I suppose we are all searching for someone to teach us the moves we needed to win at life, the knightly code of conduct, the ways of the alpha-male. That's why we found each other. But a sequence of manuevers and a system of behavior would never fix what was broken inside. Nothing would fix what was broken inside. All we could do was embrace the damage.


I totally reject that horseshit. I started out just as broken as these dudes did. Most of us do. But if you cannot find someone to teach it to you, someone to help you fix it and learn the game, then learn it yourself. I did it. It can be done.

I know how Mystery felt, crying about not having a Miyagi. We ALL want a Miyagi to lead us, but very few of us are blessed with a role model or authority figure that fills that role. I have spent much of my youth looking for that person in my life, and I never found him. For most of us, he does not exist. That is just the harsh reality of life sometimes.

The other guys seem to fail where Neil has succeeded because they were trying to look for a master, someone to learn everything from and teach them what they get wrong. In their quest to find their all-knowing Miyagi, they found only other beta's to learn from, and that seems to be their downfall.

Neil, unlike the other's described in this book, decided to try to learn by trial and error rather than by copying other's. Rather than trying to copy the other betas in the house, Neil decided to go out alone and try new things. Through the humiliations (if there were many), trials, and tributlations, he found something that works. Rather than venture into the dark forest and searching through new paths, the other betas decided to try the old paths that had already been taken, but lead nowhere near the objective of why they entered the forest in the first place.

[Ryan Leaf]

The problem with instinct is that it's not nearly as adaptable as conscious thought. This is what AMOGing counts on.

Personally, I think that in most cases, the exact opposite is true. Conscious thought is usually way too slow to react to changing circumstances. 'AMOGing' requires memorized material and rehearsed 'reactions'. It may work against your run of the mill, ex high school quarterback, but I guarantee it won’t work against a true alpha with good instincts and any measure of intelligence. Once an Alpha acts differently to what is expected, the AMOGer doesn't have the natural ability to counter. If the Alpha doesn't have the verbal skills to compete with the AMOGer, they quite possibly could respond with their fists.


It strikes me that this book is really not about women at all. It is about men, or perhaps about becoming a man. If you want to learn about women, it would be a better idea to read Sperm Wars.

[oniontears]

Yeah, but that could be a reversal of causality. Instead of imputing the age of virginity loss with the cause of becoming a natural, you could just as easily say that because you are a natural, you lose your virginity sooner.

This is actually an interesting question, trying to tease the cause and the effect out of this relationship. There is no question that some casual relationship between the two, the question is what causes what? Maybe there is some larger cause of both?


I submit that both are red herrings to the third 'hidden' variable of symmetry.

The more symmetrical a male is the sooner he is apt to become sexually active, the higher the number of sexual partners he will tend to have over his lifetime, the more likely he will be to cheat on his partner/s, and the more likely a female will be to achieve coital orgasm with him. There have been many very careful studies on this and a quick google of 'male symmetry sex' should turn up a few of them. Symmetry isn't necessarily synonymous with getting laid, but in terms of 'displaying value' it is the easiest to notice and the hardest to hide. It's the mPUA of sex selection.

Most early-adolescent males don't have much 'value' (verbal wit, intelligence, stature, life experience, confidence, resources) to display when stacked alongside their even just slightly older male adolescent counterparts, but a highly symmetrical and therefore attractive 13-year-old male will stand out, age notwithstanding. This is most likely what enabled Johnny Depp to lose his virginity at 13, to a 17 year-old girl no less; moreso than the fact that he was in a garage band or that he had a natural performer's human intuition, emotional intelligence and charisma.

In fact I would venture that the single most consistent variable in males who lose their virginity at 13-14 is symmetry; prior to 13 I think it may break down as socioeconomic and family dynamic factors may enter it, and by about 15 I believe individual males tend to develop sufficient 'value' to 'compete' for female sexual favor despite relative symmetrical inferiority.

Tucker is right that there is probably some compounding of variables between 'naturals' and early sexual activity, and this is why I propose the third hidden variable of symmetry.

This is not to say that all or even most naturals are more symmetrical than the so-called "AFC" or simple late-bloomers. However, with these symmetrical-naturals, there is a feedback probably at work. More symmetrical males are favored in the reproductive game and are instinctively responded to more positively in general by both sexes during their formative years and indeed throughout their lives. This will naturally build up an individual's confidence, even from childhood, such that one such individual could genuinely say that their sense of self-worth or 'inner game' just seems to be part and parcel of who they truly are.

So it's not that all or even most naturals necessarily lose their virginity younger; it's that more symmetrical males tend to lose their virginity younger, and more symmetrical males tend to be 'natural alpha males' because of an entire life experience reinforcing inner confidence through positive social responses to their symmetry. That's my theory at least.

I'll also just add that I just finished The Game and thoroughly enjoyed it. I also bought a copy for my brother and will give it to him for Christmas.

If anyone vehemently disagrees or agrees with any of the thoughts I've expressed above, I highly recommend "The Mating Mind" by Geoffry Miller, a Cambridge biologist and evolutionary psychologist who, albeit as an academic, looks at 'The Game' in terms of how we evolved as species and genders to behave as we do. That and "The Definitive Book of Body Language" by Allan and Barbara Pease, which systematically deconstructs body language, something 'naturals' do intuitively-- an easy illustrated read and terrifically fascinating stuff.

[bmwderek]

I thought one of the most interesting points was regarding how the people he met via the Internet were losers in real life.

This is somewhat obvious. After all, If they weren't total losers, they wouldnt need all these Fast Seduction tips and would be getting laid instead of hanging on messgae boards.

But from the people who I've met from message boards, they often seem to be losers in real life. This isn't to say that people from this board are losers, but on automotive related boards(the notable exception being www.ferrarichat.com) , it seems like many of the posters who are held to be demi-gods, especially the moderators who have the hot cars are generally the stereotypical computer programmer, or live in their parents basement. I guess its easy to hide behind your true persona behind a computer monitor.

[Tucker Max]

Of course, Tyler's program isn't unbeatable. If someone is conscious of what's happening and can break their own program they could take it out. His entire approach to being a PUA is figuring out what people are going to do and then creating lines and routines that use their interspersonal scripts to work for him. This is how he neutralized Style and Mystery. I'm guessing a way to beat an AMOGer would be to to realize that treating this person as a lesser competitor is playing directly into their hands and then do something entirely different.

I just want to point out that you are describing, possibly without knowing it, an OODA loop. This is cutting edge combat strategy, and the point of having everyone read Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War when we do the conflict philosophy books. If you can get inside someone's else loop, you can always beat them.

[DidIDoThat]

I've read this book, as well as The Dirt ( also amazing) and I am going to actively go out and read everything else by neil. The one thing I enjoyed about this book was its anchor in reality. It's very much the same reason I have enjoyed Tucker's writing. Enough facts are presented to the reader so that if they knew how to use google, or do alittle research, they can find truth and facts behind the writing. I find this to be a very attractive thing in any writing that I read. The one thing that i enjoyed the most was how Style chose to expose himself as Neil for the sake of his writing and his happiness. He could have continued under his guise and been sucessful with many women, but by shattering this false reality he had created he was truly able to step forward and be the person he had taken all these steps to achieve. Hats off to him for taking this path of self discovery and coming out the other end as himself.

[TheEmperor]

I will not rehash what has already been said (great book, great lessons) instead I will try keep this thread alive by discussing another issue the book mentions (albeit in a small way), your friend and mine, Mr Tom Cruise.

Step 7:
Extract to a seduction location

Chapter 1
-This Tom Cruise thing...I could go on for days about this. Very interesting.


I dont know why but I have always liked Tom Cruise, he was one of those actors that if he was in a movie I knew it was going to be worth watching. On top iof this he always had a lot of haters with no great reason, other then being successful and a little passionate about his "weird cult" Scientology. Whatever the crowd thinks, I tend to go in the opposite direction so this further endeared himself to me.

Then the whole Oprah interview/Brooke Shields/60 Minutes interview (most of you may not have seen it, but here in Australia on 60 Minutes he lost it in an interview, http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtyminutes/stories/2005_06_05/story_1400.asp for video and transcript) unfolded and the haters had more ammunition then they knew what to do with.

Watching these interviews and reading the articles, I began to feel that perhaps the haters were right, this dude was insane, point blank. However one of my central tenets is conventional wisdom is often wrong/whatever the crowd/society is thinking, the opposite is normally right, so I wasnt ready to accept the "Tom Cruise is a madman/Save Katie" mantra just yet.

It was about this time that the watergun incident occurred (http://www.compfused.com/directlink/811/) watching this clip, I had my answer. Tom Cruise was right, the haters were wrong. Here is this actor, doing interviews for his new movie and some random pretending to be an interviewer sprays water in his face. What does Tom do? Lose the plot, send his bodyguards after the guy for a little payback? He just looks the guy square in the face and asks "Why would you do that? Why would you lessen a person like that? Does it makes you feel good?" There was no ego, no bravado, there was only curiosity and perhaps a little pain, that people were like this.

This is already turning into War and Peace so I will try cut this short. To an extent parallels can be drawn between Tyler and Neil, and Society and Tom Cruise. In both cases jealousy, jealousy of success and more importantly jealousy of identity cause Tyler/Society to bring down their idol. The difference is that Neil could escape the world of seduction theorists to become a better person, Cruise can not.

I could go on forever about this topic, but to avoid your eyeballs from bleeding I am interested in hearing what the rest of you have to say on this. The Tom Cruise issue in and of itself is worth discussion I feel, but I would particuarly like to explore the lack of identity in modern society (its cause, ramifications of, relationship to the larger issue of societal intelligence, possible solution) aspect of it also. Moreso then anything else (much like Fight Club) The Game is a story about the quest for identity.

[KillaCam2]

I dont know why but I have always liked Tom Cruise, he was one of those actors that if he was in a movie I knew it was going to be worth watching.

...one of my central tenets is conventional wisdom is often wrong/whatever the crowd/society is thinking, the opposite is normally right

Tom Cruise was right, the haters were wrong.

...jealousy, jealousy of success and more importantly jealousy of identity cause Tyler/Society to bring down their idol.




This post was pretty far off topic, and I am by no means an authority on Tom Cruise, but I still feel compelled to ask ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS???

Did Tom Cruise's sister sneak onto TMMB and post?

I want to go off on this, but fuck it, I'm too lazy to list the shitty movies he's been in, address your theory that people dislike Tom Cruise because they are jealous of him, or get into what a retard he is, but for christs sake, at least objectively asses things instead of just going against the crowd/"haters".

[drinkupjohnny]

Another interesting aspect of The Game is the prominent role the internet has in the book itself, and the experience of the reader. This is a thoroughly modern story. It couldn't have happened 10 years ago. The seduction community exists because the internet allows them to network together, advertise inexpensively on a global scale, and share/develop techniques & philosophy.

Beyond that, how many of you googled Neil and various characters in the book? Personally, I looked up what he looked like, checked out some interviews and viewed some pics of his girlfriend. I also checked out neilstrauss.com and was puzzled by it (the plot thickens?). And then, this thread starts and we get access to videos, speeches, interviews and pics of the various players in the book. If the reader wishes, he can follow the story of the PUA community online. The book's last chapter doesn't have to be the end.

So, welcome to 2005. There are great innovations ahead in the publishing world. Internet-savvy authors like Neil, Tucker and Maddox interact directly with their audience. Hidden codes or continuing stories in follow-up chapters online are just the beginning. The book world is poised to be turned on its head by creative writers who come up with new ways to get their message out and make books that have value beyond what's printed on their pages.

[daverzzz]

Thank you Tucker for recommending this book.

Thank you Neil for writing it.

As far as I could see it is a cautionary tale. Thankfully I found it when just in the beginning of my research in to the PUA community. If I do continue to study these guys it will be with a whole new outlook.

I think that if you approach the techniques as a way of braking through the initial fear of approaching women and building confidence, then you can be succesful. Otherwise, like everyone has said, you just turn in to another robot.

Thanks again Style.

[Latka]

This post was pretty far off topic, and I am by no means an authority on Tom Cruise, but I still feel compelled to ask ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS???

Did Tom Cruise's sister sneak onto TMMB and post?

I want to go off on this, but fuck it, I'm too lazy to list the shitty movies he's been in, address your theory that people dislike Tom Cruise because they are jealous of him, or get into what a retard he is, but for christs sake, at least objectively asses things instead of just going against the crowd/"haters".

All TheEmperor was trying to do was start a discussion about Tom Cruise. He was trying to HELP the overall discussion. This thread is beginning to slow down, and it's getting filled with people who are just saying how much they liked the book, or worse, with people like you, who don't contribute and even try to shoot down those who do. If you disagree with TheEmperor's opinions, I think that's great, but perhaps you should propose a counter-argument instead of just referring to yourself as "by no means an authority on Tom Cruise" or "too lazy" to even give an explanation for why you disagree. It kind of hurts your credibility.

Anyway, I think that Neil was on the outside of the PUA community. That's not to say that he wasn't accepted by its members, because obviously he was held in very high regard. What I mean is that he viewed himself as an outsider. His ultimate goal--as is the goal of any good journalist--was to discover the truth. With the exception of Mystery, I think that he really held the PUAs at arm's length and that his attitude toward the community was one of healthy skepticism. There was something more that these guys just weren't getting.

And then came the interview with Cruise. Cruise opened the door and pointed Neil down the road to where true wisdom lay. He, first and foremost, truly showed Neil what a real alpha is. Neil even began making decisions based on the criterion, "What would Tom Cruise do?" If that doesn't show that Tom Cruise is a highly significant person to Neil, I don't know what does. Obviously Tom Cruise is an important, even pivotal, character in this book. I believe that he deserves discussion.

[Ricky]

I think that if you approach the techniques as a way of braking through the initial fear of approaching women and building confidence, then you can be succesful. Otherwise, like everyone has said, you just turn in to another robot.

They can do more than that for you, but you have to make them a part of your game and not make them your game. There's nothing wrong with using something you like even if you aren't trying to build confidence, but trying to follow a routine you read online precisely will just give you someone else's personality for 20 or 30 minutes.

[The Experiment]

It seems like most guys who started this PUA stuff were at rock bottom in their lives. For me, it was after High School. Unlike most guys who get in here, I was a varsity football player, had several friends, and always went to the big parties during the weekends. Yet no women. I had nobody to lead me either but I was too clueless to figure it out for myself. I figured that if I couldn't get laid in High School, I couldn't get laid ever. So I dug deeper into my escapism of playing video games nonstop and becoming a human vacuum, eating everything in my house that was possible.

The communities I thought were fucking lame. The first site I went to was http://www.sosuave.com. The guy that led me down the path was not DeAngelo or Jeffries but by a man named Pook. Pook seemed like the kind of guy I was; a man who wrote long messages, wasn't a complete social reject, and his posts were a step or two off base. He never told us to act like a robot like most of the others; his idea was to bring out our inner game. Still, I remember the piss poor conversations I'd have with girls with this shit. It worked and it felt great but no ass.

Soon I was able to get ass but no longer was that a thrill for me. So I started challenging myself. I'd make sure I'd fuck the smartest girl on campus (didn't come close but the one I did fuck, she got a 35 on her ACT), fuck someone on the Student Body Government, fuck a cheerleader, etc. Once I finished those goals, there was that few seconds of that "I'm so fucking awesome" and then nothing.

Then I got my shit together and realized that life was more than status fucks. I turned my academics around, hung out with more friends (not just girls), and started getting more serious in the gym. I also stopped trying to worry about how many girls I'd fuck, I gave up on status fucks; I became a much better person.

When I cracked open The Game, I heard a lot about it. I never heard of Style before in my life and I thought it was another lay guide. I thought it was until getting deeper into the book. I was fucking amazed at his conversations with Tom Cruise the most. The guy, despite being fucking insane, has his shit together when it comes to women. The man was no bitch but wasn't past the idea of love.

I smiled when I read about the PUA community in shambles as he left Project Hollywood with Lisa. The PUA community is the blind leading the blind. Someone finds something out of dumb luck and mass produces it for people to consume. Or someone turns something fun and throws so much shit into it that it becomes stale. I thought it worked well with my own conclusions and with a day off of work, I read the thing in a day. I was capivated by it.

I believe in giving credit where credit is due. All these PUA "gurus", as fucking stupid as they were, changed my life. Without their initial influence, I'd probably be another dorm dork, in the back corner of the hallways playing Diablo 2 or whatever while masturbating furiously to porn wishing a real woman would acknowledge my existence while I break past the 300 lbs for my weight.

In short, its a fucking awesome book. Neil, if you are still reading this, you did mention that the fallout of Project Hollywood was enough material to write another book on. I was curious if you were for any reason, going to write more about the community and all of their leaders. Or maybe someone here can point me to a site or something that answers my question.

[affirmed]

Pook is a great writer and posts some excellent 'inner game' stuff. Deangelo covers inner game too though... in exhaustive detail. He has programs that have no pick up information in them at all. Not to recommend or rubbish just a fact. Personally I think deangelo's stuff is pretty solid good advice but he's a cash whore.

Check out this link it's a free two hour seminar from Tyler. I challenge people not to find it interesting. Put morals aside and just listen to what he says. I think moralising is stupid anyway but to do it on the fucking 'Tucker Max' message board is insane.

http://www.realsocialdynamics.com/audio.asp

[Bigrebo]

I, like many here, like the book very much. Beyond praise I would like to talk about the techniques presented in the book. However, I do not want to take over the thread if that is not the intention.

I have to admit I find many of the techniques described in the book to be very interesting both technically and psychologically. While the conversation openers like "Cube" and "C vs. U smile" are interesting, the repition of such games is, like many have noted, a bit robotic. The format they present is interesting but I think most intelligent guys could come up with something similar. What I really do think is worth merit is learning to ignore your target, throw negs at her, and punish her actions. This stuff, to me at least, was very contrary to common logic and works very well according to Strauss (and Tater Bee). Does this approach come naturally to Alphas?

Tucker, your note about the OODA Loop has caused me to look at this in a strategic manner. "Ignore, Neg, Punish" I look at paralelling the classic military approach of Misdirecting, baiting, and ambushing. The steps in the contents of the book could be looked at in a very combat oriented manner.

One quote in the novel of particular signifigance to me is from juggler:
I spent my early twenties trying to get to know girls by asking tons of
questions—open-ended questions, smart questions, strange questions, the most
heartfelt questions wrapped in beautiful boxes. I thought they would appreciate
my interest. All I got was name, rank, serial number, and sometimes the finger.
Interrogation is not seduction. Seduction is the art of setting the stage for two
people to choose to reveal themselves to each other.
Talking in statement form is the way old friends speak to each other.
Statements are the mode of the intimate, the confident, and the giving. They
invite others to share and make perfect metaphysical sense.

I know I have spent most my life asking questions and getting stonewalled. I think Juggler might be onto something with that.

Tyler's audio is interesting but he is neither organized nor concise. The problems he has with his personal life, specifically with his business partners, bleed into the advice he is trying to give.

[Madhatter]

I picked this book up after hearing Tucker say it was worth reading. I love reading, knowledge is the best thing to have. Anywho, I read the first chapter, then went out and had my turkeybowl football game. Came back and read, was going to play counter strike, but I read and read. This book is awesome, Neil is a fantastic writer. The book made me like him in a way maddox's writing makes me like him. He has morals and self imposed rules he tries not to break. The book made me like Neil, and wish him and Lisa an awesome relationship. Does anyone have a picture of her? I searched, but couldn't find it. I know her name and all, shes just apperently Courtney love's guitarist, not a person.

[supaphly119]

i'm about halfway trough the book. i picked it up yesterday at the airport on my way back from thanksgiving vacation. its fucking brilliant, i've definately never thought about half of the things mentioned. i definately think its time ti re-vamp my game. here's to you, style.

[Steve H]

Lisa Leverage is her name. If anyone finds a good pic post it. The other pictures posted have been funny as shit.

Amazing book. I took a day off work to finish it. This has to be one of the most fascinating sub-cultures I've ever heard of. The amount of thought they put in to every aspect of the human psyche was unreal. By the end you really get a feeling of how sad and desperate these people really are. I wasn't expecting that aspect to be so prominent. I never even looked at sex as validation for men but by the end I realized I use it for that to an extent too. I won't bore everyone with a detailed review but the book was a 10 out of 10 on my scale. Characters were enthralling, story was incredibly interesting and the messages were fairly profound. Great book.

[Urquell]

A couple pics of Lisa and Neil.

From the SF Chronicle (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/09/25/LVGPHEQA941.DTL&o=1)

[Interested Party]

I was surprised not to see this quotation in the book:
The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that, you've got it made.
Jean Giraudoux (1882 - 1944) French dramatist, novelist, diplomat
In 'Murphy's Law Book Two' by quoted by A. Bloch. Also attributed to Samuel Goldwyn.
or maybe I just missed it.

I've been married so long that game as it is described here just doesn't apply, but I find it fascinating, and I am much more aware of it when I see it going on about me than I ever was when I was first dating.

I did find an odd parallel between the faking confidence until you have confidence that occurs in "running game" and in young doctors. When teaching med students and interns, I would emphasize how important the appearance of calm and confidence was. This is not some bullshit routine you pull so that you can con the patient into letting you do the procedure; confidence is therapeutic. Eventually, you get used to stepping in and taking charge because you are confident and you do know what to do. Yet how do you know you can do the operation until you've done it? At some point all the book learning in the world won't help and you just have to do it.

[NapAdvocate]

I dunno if anyones posted this already, or if anyone cares, but heres a video clip of Strauss I found while browsing. Yes, he's on The View... Strauss on The View (http://www.panopticist.com/video/the_view.mov)

[KillaCam2]

I dunno if anyones posted this already, or if anyone cares, but heres a video clip of Strauss I found while browsing. Yes, he's on The View... Strauss on The View (http://www.panopticist.com/video/the_view.mov)

I saw this and listened to that Tyler Durden link someone put up, and I have to say, both of them come off really feminine. Is that part of the game, or just coincidental?

[cant sleep]

I was very surprised when I heard Strauss' voice on that view clip. I can't picture half of the scenes in the book now that I've seen and heard him. He does come off very feminine, which may explain why he could so easily enter conversations with women and make them immediately feel comfortable.

But I listened to the Tyler Durden clip and I don't think he comes across as feminine at all.

[Otherman]

I've seen one of DeAngelo's seminars, I think it was the original DVD Advanced Series. Is that the same Tyler who speaks for a while on that? I remember him giving some directions on how to tone your voice, and maybe something about wanting to make women laugh rather than pick them up.

That Tyler seemed like he had his shit together anyway, not like the complete psycho in the book (not that I'm doubting the book over one act at a seminar). Are they the same person?

[KillaCam2]

I listened to the Tyler Durden clip and I don't think he comes across as feminine at all.


Fair enough, Tyler isn't bad, but Neil, I would've guessed him gay if I was flipping through the channels and saw that View clip.

I guess the arguement could be made that he is really just being himself, and it's his confidence in himself that attracted his gf, but in the book he lists a bunch of women he sleeps with using his PUA tactics. I'd rather stick to the girls I get now then act like an over the top metro who does magic tricks, but maybe it does HELP.

I truly want to believe that inner game is what gets the girls, whatever star they may be, but I can't deny the fact that that most of the hot girl I know date musclebound/metro/chest shaving type guys (or rich guys). Not to say that these girls have the best inner confidence themselves, but it doesn't make me want to fuck them any less.

[Tucker Max]

I truly want to believe that inner game is what gets the girls, whatever star they may be, but I can't deny the fact that that most of the hot girl I know date musclebound/metro/chest shaving type guys (or rich guys). Not to say that these girls have the best inner confidence themselves, but it doesn't make me want to fuck them any less.

Where do you live? The Jersey Shore?

[KillaCam2]

Where do you live? The Jersey Shore?


hah, close, I do live in Jersey, that might be part of the problem

I feel like all the workouts, money, and clothes in the world will only get you that initial attraction, and then it's up to your personality/game to take it home from there, but isn't that initial attraction half the battle?

Sure, there are lots of hot girls I think would love me if they got to know me, but they were initally attracted to some guy who stuck out based on apperance or social status, and ended up with him.

I believe personality/inner game is by far the most important factor when picking up women, but I can't deny that I get a better respone when I go out in a faggoty striped shirt and spike my hair. I'm the same person, but girls are more willing to hear what I have to say because of the initial attraction.

[porkman]

This is a quote from Tyler.
"What do you think is the first thing I do when I see another player?"

"Observe?"

"Well, yes, but what else?"

"Talk to him?"

"No... The first thing I do is try to take his girls."

He says he does it in the name of science. He says he's not in this to view women as lesser beings, yet playing women with the sole purpose of messing with another guy seems very, very scary.

[badash87]

Thanks tucker for recommending the book. I read it, and think it conveys a very positive message about finding ones true self. I'm 18 years old and I've been studying PUA stuff like David Deangelo for over a year now. Neil is right, I do see myself as a robot at times. Sometimes I'll try and memorize lines to use on girls. My problem is now that I agree with the books message, I dont know where to go from here. I looked up to the PUA material for guidance, but im not sure now if the book is advocating for me to give all that stuff up. The material seemed to work, and now im not sure what kind of approach I should have with women apart from being "My true self." Although I loved the book it has left me a bit confused. Maybe I'm missing something.. anyone?

[TheGreenCactus]

The material seemed to work, and now im not sure what kind of approach I should have with women apart from being "My true self." Although I loved the book it has left me a bit confused. Maybe I'm missing something.. anyone?

You know, there is no silver bullet play that will make you successful with women. It requires a sweeping committment to all parts of your life and attitude. That's sort of the point.

[affirmed]

Which INCLUDES a commitment to go out and talk to girls. Style didn't get good by having a great life. The guy went fucking touring with motley crue and hung out with jenna fucking jameson.

What made the difference? Spending time with puas and trying 'lines' and routines.

I don't think you need to memorise lines and routines if you don't want to but I do think you have to go out and talk to women and keep doing it. Build up your social muscles. Building up 'all areas of your life' MOST IMPORTANT includes getting out there and talking to girls. That in itself will build things like confidence, courage etc.

Peace

[Urquell]

The Tyler streaming audio is definitely worth listening to, and you can see the parallels of his character in the book to him in real life. This confirms that he deconstructs every conversation he has, analyzing what actions give him the most desired response.

Personally, I don't see how scripted conversation can be fun, if you use some of these PUA techniques to break the ice, great, but as mentioned before, 20 minutes of borrowing someone else's personality with the end game of sex can't be as satisfying as winning a girl over with your own charm. If I walked around asking "Do girls think that the rock star David Bowie is hot?" to every girl I came across, they could probably read that I was bored of asking that question. Well, perhaps my indifferent attitude would be interpreted as a neg and would even work out in the end to my benefit. The point being, one should desire the skill of true witty spontaneity in conversation, not the latest in PUA shystery. I see nothing horribly wrong with using the seminar-learned lines as a crutch, but after a while one should desire to walk on their own.

And what was with the line he said to 'get his girlfriend?' 'Does it smell like tacos over here?' ??? That was the most horrible line I've ever heard. For such a self-proclaimed cocksmith, you think he would be able to come up with something better.

Tyler's speech does give some solid advice though, and brought to my attention parts of my own game that in that past that have worked surprisingly well, and times when I should have done something differently.

Best advice: 90% of guys have the same boring approach: the Interrogation. Change it up. If you stand out, ascertain high value, and are funny and easy-going, they're going to remember you. Make women thing "wow, that guy's fun, I want to be around him". I liked this: "Be funny but back off when you're heading towards clownville."

[SecondarySight]

Fair enough, Tyler isn't bad, but Neil, I would've guessed him gay if I was flipping through the channels and saw that View clip.

I met Style at his book signing and dinner in San Francisco with the SF pickup Lair. He is definitely somewhat androgynous, but he doesn't come off as feminine/gay in real life as he does in that clip. I found him very charismatic, and I felt very comfortable talking to him. I managed to talk with Lisa a bit after dinner and I liked her also, though she was pretty tired. She seemed quite fiery (not towards me though, luckily!), which matches her description in "The Game."

[sypher]

I went out and bought "The Game" after following this thread for a couple days. It seemed interesting and I had some time to kill on leisure books before Tucker's book came out so I decided what the hell. I can't say how entertained I've been with the book thus far. I'm about half way through it and there are a couple things so far that have really caught my eye.

1. I've always been good with girls naturally. I'm not talking anywhere near Tucker, but I can walk into a bar or club and do well for myself. This being said it’s never been something I dissected or even thought about how I approach girls. There are so many subtle things presented in this book that can improve any guy’s chance of success. The non confrontational approach was the first that caught my eye. I can actually recall a couple times where I've caught a girl from behind and came up empty. I can't believe I had never taken the time to think about the little things I can do to improve success.

2. While the book mostly relates to interaction with girls, allot of these techniques can translate into the business world or just social interaction in general. I run a media company based out of SoCal, soon to be NY, and I've taken a couple of these applications into meetings already and had noticeably more success by just making a few simple changes to presentation and interaction. Again there are so many minor things you can do to yield better results in interaction.

Although I haven't finished the book yet I've already recommended it to a few people in regards to some basic improvement of social interaction. While the deeper NLP and seduction content are great fun read, it's really the small improvements suggested in social interaction that I feel are what make this book standout.

[KillaCam2]

I've taken a couple of these applications into meetings already and had noticeably more success by just making a few simple changes to presentation and interaction. Again there are so many minor things you can do to yield better results in interaction.

Would you mind expanding on this? What exactly have you taken from the book an used in a business setting? How were the interactions improved?

[YCOSeth]

It's just the overall air of confidence and push-pull. When Neil says "Religion is a pickup. Politics is a pickup", he's right. While the techniques in the book are specifically designated for bar hookups, the overall theme of internal confidence and social dominance can be used in ANY situation.

I believe it was on Pimp's Up, Hos Down, that Ice T(former pimp and drug dealer) told a story about how he got a record deal.

He was talking to a record executive, saying he was interested in getting a deal from his label. The exec asked if he had a demo and Ice T said no, he didn't. When the exec then asked why he should give him a deal then, Ice T said, "Let's say I'm selling hand grenades in an alley. I'm not going to let you throw one of my hand grenades to see if it's good. Even if it does work, who's to say all the other ones in the case are going to as well? You've just got to trust that my hand grenades are good, or they aren't." The exec signed him to a deal and said,

"You've got a good business sense, did you go to business school?"
"No, but I used to sell hand grenades."

Ice T just picked up that exec. Despite a totally different setting, he used push-pull and a general nonchalant attitude. Just like the guys who get sex are the ones who don't act like they need it, he got a deal by not begging and pleading for a chance.

[KillaCam2]

Post

All good stuff, I was just curious to see the specific conversations people might be having as a result of The Game and how they were working out. Sort of like Tucker's "Breaking Down the Game" except not necessarily just hitting on girls.

[The Experiment]

Pook is a great writer and posts some excellent 'inner game' stuff. Deangelo covers inner game too though... in exhaustive detail. He has programs that have no pick up information in them at all. Not to recommend or rubbish just a fact. Personally I think deangelo's stuff is pretty solid good advice but he's a cash whore.

Check out this link it's a free two hour seminar from Tyler. I challenge people not to find it interesting. Put morals aside and just listen to what he says. I think moralising is stupid anyway but to do it on the fucking 'Tucker Max' message board is insane.

http://www.realsocialdynamics.com/audio.asp

Sorry, its hard to get past that Tyler looks like the kid who got his ass kicked daily by anyone who walked near him but still had some fucking attitude. DeAngelo, well, I'd say out of all the PUA workshops out there, he is probably the best. Double Your Dating blows but Attraction Isn't A Choice, which I think was meant to be a sequel to DYD, was pretty good. I've moved past this kind of stuff but whenever something is published about the PUA theory, I have to read it. Like I said before, I thought "The Game" was another lay guide but this time with a writer who got to meet some celebrities.

I remember a quote a while back with someone asking if the seduction community would die. The answer is no. I knew that right away. The community has such a strong hive mentality. Strauss was like the little kid who used a stick to poke and prod the bee's nest. The bees attacked him. Its rare to find really well written negative reviews on this book. Most people who bashed it, always had ulterior motives. It was usually:

1) Some stupid bitch who would proclaim that if a guy pulled this shit, it wouldn't work on her. Any time I hear a girl say that, I laugh. These girls aren't a Lisa either. They were the girls who claimed were immune but if you pulled these moves on them, they would fuck you without thinking for a second you got all your moves from insecure he-bitches who used women as ego pick-me-ups.
2) Some insecure bitch who would always state that she liked smart or nerdy guys because she likes their neediness.
3) Some Pick Up Artist with a chip on his shoulder. He takes one for the team (RSD buddies) and reads the book, scoffing at how someone could mess with the greatness that was Tyler Durden. 'How dare this Neil Scheist talk about Papa like that!' He finishes the book, dismissing it, gaining e-credibility while saving up cash to go on a workshop.

Point is, these seduction communities will never die. Someone will always appear on the scene, offer something new, intellectualize it, and peddle it for free. Desperate people will look at it like a shining beacon of hope, allowing them to get past the haze of the bullshit of not getting laid. Then there will be someone right there to capitalize off of it. Ever wonder why dictators and cult leaders got followers? They were charismatic, had a solid line of thinking, and was accepting people who were at their lowest in life. You had to be fucking stupid to believe that the Hale-Bopp comet was going to bring salvation but when you're down and out in your life and someone is charasmatic enough to inspire good feelings inside of you, you begin to follow them.

Some people charge nothing for it. Others, like Papa, Tyler Durden, and others would sell it and make money. These people are selling fool's gold: the right kind of idea but the wrong fucking way to do it. I could go online, post up all the pictures of the women I fucked, and came up with shit that worked for me, wrote down everything that happened, and charge lots of money for impressionable but clueless people.

Yes, this works in all areas of life. I applied this shit constantly. I was able to become a master bullshitter and was able to turn in a project late with no point deductions. Once you think about it or ideas like this, your brain processes them faster. Its like a snowball. As you roll it along down a hill, it gets bigger and moves faster. To be able to be in the big leagues, you have to know how to play ball.

Then again, I'm only 20. I've been reading and doing this shit for about 2 1/2 years and I've moved on. Its like training wheels. I took them off and now I'm riding on my own with inner game and confidence that was always in me but never was used. I still have shitloads to learn about women and my own self but going through the PUA shit and realizing what was good and bad about it was a good thing. I regret nothing.

[herbal]

Yo.

This is Herbal, from the book. It's funny, I actually heard about Tucker for the first time through the pickup community.

It was interesting to read what you guys thought of the book / community / etc.

I'm surprised that people got the message that the pickup seminars were shams and that the pickup community wasn't the right way to learn this stuff.

The fact is that the major seminars (MM, RSD, Pickup101, Fidentia) offer incredible value to people. I never took one (although I sat in on a bunch of them), but I wish I had. I helped teach many MM seminars and very rarely did I see someone not get huge value from it (the people that didn't were the ones who had a holier-than-thou attitude and were there to prove something to themselves, not to learn).

The point of the book, if there is one, is that learning pickup is a means to an end, not an end in of itself. Neil's (and really everone's) contempt is for the people who make pickup their entire life, and find themselves with absolutely nothing to talk about with a girl on Day 2, because they haven't scripted anything.

In fact, what's amazing about the community is that at the higher levels it attracts incredible skilled people. Not just skilled with pickup, but in other areas in life. I've met masters at everything from piano playing to marketing to body building through the community. (And that's ignoring the obvious magician and writer). These are people who I probably would have never met otherwise. Some are good friends and business partners today.

Take care,
Herbal

[Jackmo]

Firstly, I have to say that I thoroughly enjoyed this book. That being said I also enjoyed Tucker’s interpretations just as much.

Tucker: you magnificent bastard, I salute you.

After reading “The Game” I was inspired to learn more and felt my desire to be the best that I can be re-kindled. One of the biggest moral’s of this book for me was the message about the why the community exists and how all of these self-proclaimed guru PUA’s were able to pick up girls, sometimes fuck them but never maintain a healthy relationship based upon mutual respect.

I consider myself to be somewhat of a Natural and posses a good working understanding of Game at the very least at a subconscious level (on the same token, I understand my weaknesses and don’t profess to be a guru). There are many lessons shared by Neil and Tucker that I 100% agree with. Notably the quote of:


There was a lesson here: The less you appear to be trying, the better you do.


This is lesson that can only be learned or applied to picking up women but life itself. This is a belief that will be shared by anyone that is considered Alpha.
This is a lesson that I learnt myself after finally freeing myself from all ties, expectations and by moving out of home into another country and living an independent life for myself.
When comparing yourself to others, it is important to remember that there will always be a bigger fish. Initially, after I started having much more success with women a lot of my friends couldn’t understand it, some were envious and some were happy for me. However I am no Tucker.
But the point is that it doesn’t matter. I am happy with who I am and understand that while there are always people out there that have a greater understanding on any topic than you do it is no reason to feel bad about yourself or your own ability. If anything they are just another person for you to learn from.

If you look at any sporting legend, you will notice that one characteristic that they all share is looking cool. When Ronaldinho stands over the ball with a player squaring off to try take it from him, just because he can turn the player inside out, doesn’t necessarily mean he IS going too. Like a true master he is aware of the greater picture and if a short pass is more appropriate then that is what he will do. Just because he possesses the skills that so many desire does not mean he will use them to receive validation – he keeps the bigger picture in mind.
That to me sounds like what the PUA community was doing. Using their ability and understanding to talk to women and initially impress them. However that is focusing too heavily on the meeting stage and for the wrong reasons. I really disliked the character Tyler because he had no substance or character of his own. Sure he might be able to pick up and impress women in clubs but what next? The fact that his desire was for power was a big loud warning bell.
Another prime example is Mushashi. That motherfucker was Jesus with a Samurai sword (I could probably take him though, despite have 0 skill in martial arts). Sure he was a fanatic; he spent the majority of his life studying and mastering the art of sword fighting, he step-by-step accumulated knowledge and stacked it together in the big picture. In terms of the sword fighting world he is undisputedly Alpha. When duelling he would no doubt be unconsciously aware of the thousands of lessons that he has learnt whilst studying the art of sword fighting and unconsciously applying them. And you can bet that whilst standing there with his wooden sword, seemingly effortlessly parrying a blow that his brain is processing a million different things that someone with less knowledge of the art would have no idea even existed.
But to relate it back to Neil’s quote, you can sure as hell bet that during a duel, he would look like one smooth motherfucker. That everything he does appears to happen without effort. The point is that the same principle can be applied to one’s ability to pick up women.

The power of seduction is a very taboo subject, the lesson that Neil learnt that Tyler did not is one of intention. The skills that the community so feverishly covet and practice are only good or bad based upon the intent of the person using them. At the end of the book Neil was able to use them to attract a woman that he respected and wanted to be with, where as Tyler cared more about power in the community and validation from beautiful woman.
Neil evolved, while Tyler did not. He like Tyler used and practiced his ability to meet, talk to and attract women. However he, unlike Tyler actually wanted to be in a meaningful two-way relationship.

One of my best friends to this day remains: a 26 year old, balding, socially inept geek (and I suspect virgin) that reads a fuck load.
My favourite quote from him is: “The quintessential essence of being cool, is to not give a fuck what anyone thinks”. This is a man who (god bless his heart) is inherently Beta and would get eaten alive amongst these pack of ravens when it comes to women. However he understands (at an intellectual level at least) a very important message; just be yourself. And this is one of the main reasons that he will – in my mind - always be a better person then some clone like Tyler or Papa.

[IN10SE]

Hey Guys,

Twotimer from "The Game" here - just wanted to say hey...

IN10SE

"Darwin talked about survival of the fittest," Twotimer once explained to Strauss as they walked through a Los Angeles museum looking for women. "In earlier times, this meant that the strong survived. But strength doesn't help one get ahead in society today. Women breed with seducers, who understand how to trigger, through words and touch, the fantasy parts of the female brain."

"The whole idea of survival of the fittest is an anachronism," he continued. "As players, we stand at the gate of a new era: the survival of the smoothest."

[Rose]

There are no moral rights and wrongs.

There is no 'right' motivation. Most of our motivations were set from a very young age based on parenting. Hence tucker's love for large breasts, Tyler's motivation towards power and Neil perhaps prefering the one woman monogamous route.

To talk about 'evolving' is fine but to try and make sweeping morals statements is dumb. I've read some of tyler's posts on www.fastseduction.com the guy has a TON of self-awareness including the awareness to realise he is motivated by power.

Is he less evolved than the dork who does nothing with his life but realises that cool people don't give a fuck? I would put forward: no.

[Chico]

I read the book in one sitting, and my one comment is this:

Game is like math; there are those that memorize the equations, but the true masters understand the concepts.

Chico

[Bonestown]

I was at some party and some dude was using the glass box deal and pick a number 1 - 10 on some chick. i couldnt help but laughing at his fucking ass. i went up and asked him if he had read the book, and he told me about how awesome it was, and how the lines worked. Which made me think, many guys reading this book are missing the whole point of the book, and are actually using all those lines in it.

The one thing i gatherered from the book is not that it ever really was about the chicks to these guys, but about trying to "Be Cool". by getting numbers and bragging about it, they were just being more and more of a beta, and i can just see them doing a high five after scoring some broads number that theyll never call cause they wouldnt know what to say. I also thought throughout the book how many of those numbers were fake, and how many chicks they have actually banged. I also hope so dude tries that AMOG crap on me one day

[GuinnessGoBrah]

Which made me think, many guys reading this book are missing the whole point of the book, and are actually using all those lines in it.

Agreed. I have a buddy who was asking me about the book because his friend had read it and was "using it". My friend seemed rather excited when I said I had read it and he asked me, "Well, is it as good as he says it is? Does it work as well as he claims? I think it's a bunch of bullshit because the only thing he ever brings home are fat bitches."
I laughed and tried to explain that, if anything, it's not a "how to" but more of a "how not to". Any dipshit, especially one who finishes the book, should realize that this is an expose of new, relatively unknown, subculture as told by someone who went inside to experience it.
It IS NOT a field guide. But you're right, there are quite a few idiots that read this in order to pick up women and use a lot of things Style used, verbatim. Fucking idiots.

[spesh]

"Darwin talked about survival of the fittest," Twotimer once explained to Strauss as they walked through a Los Angeles museum looking for women. "In earlier times, this meant that the strong survived. But strength doesn't help one get ahead in society today. Women breed with seducers, who understand how to trigger, through words and touch, the fantasy parts of the female brain."

"The whole idea of survival of the fittest is an anachronism," he continued. "As players, we stand at the gate of a new era: the survival of the smoothest."

Do you really believe that? Because I was watching the Country Music Channel today and I saw a film clip for a song, and in the song the guy was singing about the fact that being a redneck and shooting things and wearing denim jackets with the sleeves cut off was really cool and got him heaps of chicks.

I was just wondering, because he really seemed like he knew what he was talking about. He even had a real hot chick in his video.

[Mortalcoil]

I'd like to know what the definition of an Alpha Male is. Are there degrees of Alpha Male? I may have missed it in the book, but at what point did Neil become and Alpha Male when the other guys didn't? More importantly, how does one become and Alpha Male?

[Sweet]

Agreed. I have a buddy who was asking me about the book because his friend had read it and was "using it". My friend seemed rather excited when I said I had read it and he asked me, "Well, is it as good as he says it is? Does it work as well as he claims? I think it's a bunch of bullshit because the only thing he ever brings home are fat bitches."
I laughed and tried to explain that, if anything, it's not a "how to" but more of a "how not to". Any dipshit, especially one who finishes the book, should realize that this is an expose of new, relatively unknown, subculture as told by someone who went inside to experience it.
It IS NOT a field guide. But you're right, there are quite a few idiots that read this in order to pick up women and use a lot of things Style used, verbatim. Fucking idiots.
Who is the fucking idiot? Are you saying there is no helpful stuff in this book?

The book certainly isn't a "field guide", and it definitely puts "the Game" in proper perspective as a means to an end not an end in and of itself, but at the same time there is a ton of useful stuff in there to help any man have better game with the women. There is nothing wrong with reading this book to improve your game.

[Fenrir]

I'd like to know what the definition of an Alpha Male is. Are there degrees of Alpha Male? I may have missed it in the book, but at what point did Neil become and Alpha Male when the other guys didn't? More importantly, how does one become and Alpha Male?

The AMOG is broken down by Mystery early in the book as these 5 characteristics. Smiling, well groomed, a sense of humor, connecting with people, and being seen as the social center of a room. Style mentions a sixth characteristic but doesn't reveal it in the book unless I missed it. In the thread others have pointed out that the sixth characteristic is true self-confidence, something that Mystery lacked.

Tyler Durden touches more on AMOGs and dealing with them later in the book, around page 230 or so if I remember correctly.

[Mortalcoil]

Tucker said earlier that Mystery's five characteristics of Alpha were just that: Characteristics. Mystery consciously affected all of them, but Tucker argued that Mystery still wasn't Alpha. Alpha Male's naturally do those things, but to do those things isn't the essence of being and Alpha Male. Tucker also said that Project Hollywood wouldn't have fallen apart like it did if there were an Alpha Male in the house. What I wonder is what the essence of an Alpha Male is. From what I gather, Tucker considers Neil and Alpha, but not Mystery or Tyler. What do Tucker and Neil have that the other guys don't have? They've both pointed to confidence, but confidence in what? What is the core belief that needs to be strong in order to be an Alpha Male? Can one of you guys state it in like one sentence? What Tucker and Neil argue makes sense, I'm just having trouble isolating the definition and essence of confidence.

[Flathead]

Holy crap. What is wrong with you people? Stop looking for your own personal Miyagi and take some responsbility for your lives. You can't isolate the definition and essence of confidence; it's a fucking lifestyle.

I know what you want- a magical phrase that you can say to yourself before approaching a woman in a bar. Here's what I say- Learn to like youself. If you don't like yourself, then change. Or you could do us all a favour and slit your wrists.

[Mortalcoil]

Holy crap. What is wrong with you people? Stop looking for your own personal Miyagi and take some responsbility for your lives. You can't isolate the definition and essence of confidence; it's a fucking lifestyle.

I know what you want- a magical phrase that you can say to yourself before approaching a woman in a bar. Here's what I say- Learn to like youself. If you don't like yourself, then change. Or you could do us all a favour and slit your wrists.

You misunderstood what I was asking. I wasn't looking for an affirmation to make myself feel better about myself. In this thread Tucker discusses Alpha Males, I'm simply asking WHAT THAT IS. I figured the answer I would get would be sometime to the effect of "Someone who has confindence," and I was asking if that was the case WHAT they have confidence in. You can define confidence in a skill, like confidence in Basketball or something, but what does just general 'confidence' mean? it's a pretty vague term.

[Gromit]

[QUOTE=Jackmo]“The quintessential essence of being cool, is to not give a fuck what anyone thinks”.

Of course, the irony is that the most uncool thing in the world is trying to be cool. Anyone that isn't fucking dumb, has had interactions with people and is over the age of 16 should know this.

[scootah]

A late post. I didn't get around to reading the book untill after most of the discussion was done. But there's a particular thought that sticks out for me in regards to the book.

There's a quote from some author, Arthur C. Clarke I think that goes 'Any sufficiently advanced technology becomes indistringuishable from magic'. This book drives home the truth of that statement for me alot. Its something I see in IT alot, but I had never seen in terms of people throwing game before.

In literature, magic is almost always the same, Say the word, make the gesture just so, and the inexplicable happens. Magic happens. Sometimes there's an explanation for why the magic happens, but it never holds water. In the end its just a miraculous phenomenon. In IT, I see it all the time when I'm screening job applicants. Guys who have mastered all the magic words and learned all the secret gestures to make computers do tricks, but really don't know why what their doing works. They might be able to repeat an explanation to you, but they aren't explaining a concept that they have internalised and grasped, they're repeating something they've learned by rote.

It was a little mind blowing to see that phenomenon with people who were running game at the level the PUA's were. They hadn't internalised what they were doing. They didn't grok what they were doing. They had deconstructed a series of social phenomena and by rote, they had learned the magic words and the secret gestures to reproduce the behaviours. They were children playing war with real fucking machine guns.

That was a very intense thought for me. I couldn't begin to grok the concept of 'Stylemogging' by exactly reproducing the behaviours that Style used to achieve his ends. Hell I don't fucking get Style only having those few routines that he used. He's a smart guy, he's internalised the concepts behind the routines enough to develop and apply the routines, why the fuck can't he just invent some more?

It really struck me how limiting, how trapped they became by that approach is. Letting the 'technology' become magic, they reached a threshold and plateaued. They tasted all the things they wanted out of life, but they lacked the fundamental tools to progress any further. They reached the limits of what their magic was capable of. A little more understanding and they could have gove so much further. It drove home to me how much more I need to understand the tools I use in my life, before I find myself trapped by their limits.

[Profit]

Greets Everyone,

Wow! I have finished reading this book and am absolutely blown away.

I too, read this in one sitting after discovering Tucker's site and it was great reading the chapter by chapter reviews on this thread after finishing each chapter of The Game.

Tucker, I experienced amazing enlightenment and self discoveries while reading this book, much the same as you clearly did in the revelation of just how naturally some of these processes come on a subconcious level to those who have a natural propensity to succeed in this area. Some of the greatest game I have ever pulled followed almost to a tee many of the techniques and methods referenced in this book and it was truely eye-opening deconstructing that which I had done previously, to discover *why* it actually worked.

And this is where I think The Game really opens a whole new can of worms. It goes so much further than the art and community of seduction or one man's journey into self discovery - to me what shone through, was the very principles and frameworks that define 'success' in nearly all aspects of the world, especially business, politics and (to an extent) world order.

I was really glad to read that sypher had seen this similar correlation;

2. While the book mostly relates to interaction with girls, allot of these techniques can translate into the business world or just social interaction in general.

What the guru's in this story had essentially done, was through innovation and systemization, developed a multipliable formula for success. Then without realising, had the innovation implemented on a large scale as a soft-system, able to be efficiently run with predictable and extraordinary results by ordinary people. This is how Ray Croc built the McDonalds empire and how over 80% of truely successful businesses run today. It's the Business Franchise Format!

For me this explains why most of the 'robot's never got it. They willingly and unwittingly systemised what Style had innovated (and ultimately evolved away from) and ran it as a system, the same way a McDonalds worker cooks the fries to a perfect golden brown every time - faith in the system, not the self! Which is where the lack of self fullfilment clearly came in.

Project Hollywood, and the whole game itself was one big (potentially)hugely successful franchise seduction business! The only problem was, it had no adequate management structure in place, which was it's ultimate undoing.

The techniques and systems outlined in the book also used and innovated some of the greatest cold-selling techniques I have ever seen, hell the community even calls it 'closing'.

The almost seamless translation of the concepts of this book, from bars to businesses, is what has got me very excited, along with the fact that opportunity exists everywhere but most of us just don't see it (like those who may not see IOI's). Tucker has been doing this stuff all along, I have been doing this stuff all along - The Game just helped me realise it, imagine how much you and me could be doing everyday that is truley innovative, that we just haven't paused to look at yet and systemize?

Read "The E-Myth Revisited" (one of my favorite books of all time) to understand my excitement.

Thank you so much Neil for giving this to the world, and thank you Tucker for bringing your leadership and experience to the masses. Respect.

[The Experiment]

There most definitely is a correlation between conducting business and being successful with women. Its not a surprise that a man who has power is one who is attractive to women. Its the same principles.

I've read it three times now and I still find things that I notice before. I thought I knew the PUA community well but since then, I read a lot of what Style has been saying. I wouldn't be caught dead trying to do the color test, the cube, the C vs. U shaped smiles. Maybe I was never that bad with women but then again, I looked online for advice with women. I can't play the cool card here.

I also have been reading all the seduction boards' opinions of this and him on the View. I noticed how some members were ridiculing him for going on this show or how he turned AFC. Like I said, its a hive mentality. This book has made waves in 2005 but the seduction community will forget all about it here, if they haven't already. Some new *cough* guru will show up with some more prepackaged tips and the community will just move on.

Also, Neil's book won't change the dating dynamics. I doubt this was his intention but for as many copies as it sold (I'm guessing it sold over 50,000 if not 100,000+), its not going to change much. Women at the end of the day love to dish out advice, even if they previously read this book; they'll still fall for it like cows in a slaughterhouse. Women will love to have their palms read (I never did that shit), will fall head over heels for the eliciting values, and various other "chick crack" routines.

The first few chapters were perfectly written and very honest. I too tried to separate my "player" persona from my real life persona. Sometimes it spilled over but it was rare. I tried to contain both and worked, sometimes.

A critique is that Neil made some bizarre word choices here. His liberal use of the words "imp" and "gumdrop" just seemed odd to me. He also described Lisa's smile as, to paraphrase, "salmon and rice" which was just weird. Also, there are some misspellings. Some that I remember off the top of my head:

Hea - Hie
Gabby - Dabby

Great book, even if it is flawed.

[JamesMason]

I liked the book and it explained a lot to me.

The RSD guys and David DeAgelo are getting slammed these days for their idea that anyone that can learn a few lines can get laid. This is not what works, obviously, and this is why guys like Tucker (who intuitively gets it) is getting laid, while students of the aforementioned will never get it.

This is the kind of thing that is hard to learn, and even harder to teach. However, what's ironic is that it must be learned. You ain't born with it. Even TuckerMax is at the level he is because of trial and error and lots of practice.

There are guys who are trying to teach something other than canned lines and bullshit. They are more closely resemble what Tucker Max has been trying to say all along. I'm talking about guys like these:

Juggler (http://www.charismasciences.com/)

Enlightened Seduction (http://www.enlightenedseduction.com)

I found these through a quick Google search, so it's not hard to find good stuff out there if you sift through some of the crap.

James

[Rose]

I like how tucker praised neil. Then everybody else jumped on the bandwagon, used no critical thinking and bigged him up hugely and dissed everybody else in the community, as if Neil himself wasn't still making money off chumps willing to pay (http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/2005/12/the_annihilatio_2.html) . He even came here and congratulated Tucker and the Tucker Echos for getting it without standing up for the community that got him this girlfriend and a no.1 bestselling book. He even said he was coming back to "post more". Reliable. Nice.

I'm glad to see some of the later posts have been a little more considered and thoughtful. Nice to see a few people making their own decisions, good or bad, but their own.

[ldm]

I suscribed to a seduction newsletter when I heard Neil Struass was going to be giving a free conference call. Months go by and I keep getting these newsletters but never really read them. I open up a newsletter and what Neil is doing is teaching 5 guys how to become masters using his new "annhiliation method". I have to admit that up to this point I was a really big fan of Neil until I read this

Now, when Neil had originally told me he was going to have Lisa
teach the guys how to use make up, I was a bit skeptical. I always
looked at that as metrosexual bullcrap. Boy, was I wrong.

Lisa developed a special "Male Make Up" baggie for each of the
Final Five. It consisted of some powder, some eyeshadow, some
mascara, and a hair stick. She got Zone to come up in front of the
group and started demonstrating the use of this make-up on him.

The first was the powder. She showed how you can use powder to
even out your skin tone and look healthier. Then we all watched in
amazement and Zone went from a pasty white guy to a guy who looked
like he had a nice bronze tan in the matter of a minute.

Then she used the eyeshadow to bring out his eyes. It was
flesh-colored, but gave the area around the eyes a little darker
tone, so his eyes popped. Then she used the mascara to move his
eyelashes away so you could really see his eyes well.

Then the cool thing was that she used the eyeshadow to darken the
grey spots in Zone's facial hair and the back of his head. He
didn't have to dye his hair or anything, with just a few quick
strokes, he had some nice, even hair color.

Then she showed how you can use the same technique to darken your
scalp under balding areas. Usually, when guys are losing their
hair, the scalp gets really pasty white. But then you use this
make-up and it makes the scalp underneath the hair look even with
the tone of your face.

Finally, she used the hair stick to give his hair a cool little
spike to it. I had always wondered how so many people got their
hair to look "messed up but cool," and with this little trick, Lisa
showed us all how to do it.

Neil was very big on teaching the guys that you have to show your
best self and take some effort with your appearance, and with
Lisa's make-up kit, all the guys were set to look killer tonight.

So with these guys are all dolled up they would be ready to pull some ass, right? Nope.
So the breakdown of the night was:
Rourke: 6 approaches (went home early)
Zone: 2 numbers (as opposed to the night before, where he got 0)
Outback: 1 number
Wiseguy: Make-Out/Kiss close
Indiana: Make-Out/Kiss Close and two numbers
Maybe they could have closed the deal if their makeup wasn't running. I really hope his method catches doesn't catch on or else we'll be seeing a lot more ackward acting, but beautiful guys at the bar.

[The Experiment]

Wow.

I read through his new method and I'm shocked. It doesn't even sound like the guy who wrote The Game. I guess the more shit changes, the more it stays the same. I even see from that link that he's pretty much teaching seminars with the people he used to hang out with. For someone who is supposedly so tired of the game, he seems back up to his old tricks: Ways to get around women's defenses by means other than having true confidence.

Disappointing but it doesn't matter. Thats his business. In my opinion, the game is like training wheels. You use it as a crutch until you start to find your inner confidence. Then once you find it, you realize how much better than you used to think you are. Then the wheels come off and you're ready to ride. I never once believed in peacocking, the C vs. U shape smiles, the cube, etc. All I was was myself, with a set of steel balls. Its worked the best but I got my inspiration from the PUA "gurus."

If there is one thing to learn from Neil, regardless of this bizarre new method of his, is what I said above.

[Bobby]

There's a quote from some author, Arthur C. Clarke I think that goes ...

That "some author" you're referring to wrote 2001, the book that was published about the same time as the classic movie. He worked with Stanley Kubrick on the ideas throughout the production, and is considered one of the fathers of science fiction. He is very influential.

Focus: I'll say this. I read the book late only after reading alot of the posts here. The book succeeded for me on one very influential level: it entertained me.

Approaching the book, I was intrigued, but took it with a grain of salt. I did gain some insight into the community, and learned about the struggles different guys go through. I don't agree with everything in it, and I have my own ideas about women and social structure, but that didn't stop me from enjoying it.

The characters really make this book. And while most of them were unknown, the addition of Cruise and Courtney Love gave it an odd sense of reality (as real as Hollywood is, anyway).

As to the later trend of posts that have Neil pictured as a sell-out: He wrote a book exploiting people who were his closest friends for years. If you're just now coming to a realization of where he'll put his price tag, you are a tool.

[nautilus]

Tucker,

It’s unfortunate that you (as well as many other posters) have such a negative view of the seduction community. First off, Captain Obvious says: YOU ARE PART OF THE SEDUCTION COMMUNITY. It boggles my mind you don’t FULLY ACCEPT THIS. Your site has field reports (loved the Ms. Vermont story!), game overviews (Breaking Down The Game), and specific techniques (Female Insecurity Buttons).

You are simply one PUA putting down the rest. This is so common in the community, it’s laughable. In fact, most of ‘The Game’ deals with this.

Other examples of you trying to AMOG the others in your written analysis:

1) I love Mystery's description of the alpha male. It is painfully obvious that he is not one.

2) I will admit, Mysteries snatch of Scott Baio's girl is kinda cool…He nevers fucks her, which kinda makes the whole exercise pointless…

3) Look, I have seen this routine in action more than a few times in real life, and in my experience it does not work--at least not really--on smart girls…

4) I am calling this as bullshit. If he tried that game in Chicago at the places I go to, the girls would laugh at him.

I could go on and on, but it’s clear that you are no different than Ross Jeffries, or Tyler Durden. I DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS FACT. It’s your denial and better-than-theses-guys attitude that is sorry.

****Tucker, these are my two favorite things you wrote!!****

"...please, the pick-up community can't teach me shit about women."

&

“I would love for one of the mPUA's to try to AMOG me. My guess is that with the types of girls I go for, Mystery would crash and burn, and vice versa, but it might be fun to find out .”

Great! Sounds like you have nothing to learn, but would be up for a challenge. So go ahead and e-mail Mystery to set this up. Mystery has responded to challenges before, so I’m sure he would be game. Keep us posted on the details.

~ Nautilus

[oniontears]

Looks like all you people who haven't yet read the book might as well just see the movie: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/news/comments/?entryid=296271

Variety and Hollywood Reporter broke the news that it's going to be produced by Chris and Paul Weitz, the directors of About A Boy and American Pie.

I was talking with my brother, having both read the book, and we think that Edward Norton would do a brilliant job going through a sympathetic and believable metamorphosis from Strauss' pre-Game geek to in-the-Game Casanova to post-Game enlightenment. However, given the Weitz's background, it looks like they'd prefer someone like Jack Black or Steve Carrell (either of whom I think would do a fantastic job).

I'm concerned about such an interesting story being bastardized by Hollywood, though. Hopefully Chris Weitz, who's adapting the book into the screenplay, will stumble upon this thread and reach into the deeper ideas of what this book is about, if he hasn't already figured it out for himself.

Some cool casting that would make the film adaptation pretty good:
Style - Edward Norton, Jack Black, Steve Carrell, Jim Carrey
Mystery - Timothy Olyphant (the drug dealer in "Go"), Derren Brown (from UK 'Mind Control' fame), Ryan Phillippe, Ryan Reynolds
Ross Jeffries - Eugene Levy. So fucking perfect.
Katya - Eliza Dushku, Keira Knightley, Kirsten Dunst
Courney Love, Paris Hilton, Tom Cruise and Britney Spears as themselves of course
That's all I got for now.

[(Z i M)]

I guess this is happening in New York now too. (http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0609,sylvester,72342,15.html)

Thoughts?

[onantiad]

I just wanted to make a note about the mild side-taking that's going on here. I was impressed with Tucker's willingness to embrace the book and much in it. He had a few honest points in which he acknowledged that Mystery could do some thing he couldn't, but he nevertheless felt the need to put Mystery down as a faker. Now that's confidence, and you could argue that that's Tucker excercising the very characteristic that he says he has- self-confidence. He believes his method is better and makes sure everyone knows it.

BUT

a. if the self confidence was just an act- if it was just scripted- wouldn't it look the exact same way? Wouldn't Tucker be saying the exact same thing? Not everyone's as smart as unique as tucker max, but those who are or come close probably know what the turing test is, and probably get what I'm saying at this point. If what Tucker said was real, or if he's just a guy like Mystery who's gotten the lines down so well that he's fooled all of us into thinking he's truly confident... it doesn't matter at all.

b. Tucker- you're awesome. But instructing guys with no game to get serious self-confidence is not much of a solution to their problems. Canned lines aren't as good as self-confidence, but they're a much quicker fix. There are some smart guys out there reading this, and you'll relate to what I'm about to say. I was fucking smart in High School and I didn't study for a single thing and I made all A's. I wanted to put down the people who weren't as smart and just studied like fucking crazy, but guess what? They got the same grades. Telling them to stop studying and to get smarter is not going to help them, and guys like mystery, who study usually do just as well as guys like Tucker who are naturals.

The only important difference between the approaches (assuming that Mystery's method can script enough lines to get you laid- if it stops at the number close it's worthless, I agree) in terms of results is that one is accessible to the beta male, and one effectively isn't.

[daberr2]

I just finished reading Neil's book a few days ago. It's really hard for me to post my own thoughts over this book because I have read the entire thread. I am not quite sure if I will simply give a summation of what I have read. But I will do my best.

Upon first seeing the book, I, unlike some of you, thought that the Bible was creative. It gave the book an insteresting allure that made me want to see what was inside of it. The gold on the pages also appealed to me.

I first started reading it and didn't realize that it was going to be written in that style. I thought it was going to be tips that people could do to become a pickup artist. Actuallly reading the reviews that only focused on this aspect of the book made me question myself to see if those people actually read the book themselves. To judge this book by narrowly focusing on the actual act of picking up women totally defeats the intended purpose of the book.

As a quick side note I found a link on this thread that had Strauss on The View. I obviously knew what this discussion was going to be centered around. Going on a show like that sort of decieves people because they will be thinking that this book is going to be written as tips that they can do to pickup women. This book, although containing sound advice on this topic, was clearly not written with that goal in mind.

If after reading this book a person is not able to see the growth that Strauss went through by becoming a mPUA, then he totally is missing the real meaning of the book.

If this book was entitled, packaged, or marketed any differently, I feel like it would not have been a National Bestseller. The entire undelining theme is based around picking up women. But no matter how alluring that is to those kids that play Magic: The Gathering, Strauss intended on us seeing how empty he became by what he thought would provide himself with happiness. It's like how he said the he was looking for something on the outside that would provide him with some sort of happiness on the inside. Clearly after posted on this thread and quoted some guy (cannot remember author) saying how there were two different type of people. The one who goes on a long journey through the forest and fights ghouls and monsters and is mistaken for believing that THAT is his destination. He has gotten stuck in the process. Guys like Tyler Durden, Mystery, Papa, are all stuck inside the forest without having reached what the other person who went through forest discovered after he came out on the other end, enlightment.

I do feel that one can improve ones game by reading this book. When he says to always walk in a bar/club smiling, that is just advice that can be used in any context... walking into the bank, a restaurant, a grocery store, anywhere...

He slowly started dropping hints around the first 1/4 of the book about The Game not being quite what he thought. It was at this point that I could tell that he was going to ultimately make that the point of the book... his self-realization that being the best pickup artist in the world, no matter how glorified it is, can be utterly empty and can ruin other aspects of what makes us people. I think being a pickup artist is glorified by everybody except those people that aren't consistently get it.. and this is where he was.. and so he changed himself to become that person that he thought he wanted to be.. and found out it wasn't him.

I'm going on and on now, sorry.

[gmm567]

I don't know if you're still reading this thread?

But you asked about the good stuff that is being produced in this "community."

I would recommend BADBOY. He's simplified the whole theory. There are no routines or scripts. I think you'll find that his material is more along the lines of your understanding. For Badboy, it's more about bodylanguage, self-confidence, and natural charisma. http://www.badboylifestyle.com . Just read his newsletters to get a sense of what he's about.

Also, Dude, you may have a drinking problem. I am not going to preach to you; I just want to pass on some information which could help---IN THE EVENT YOU DECIDE THAT YOU WANT TO QUIT.

Rational Recovery http://www.rational.org/. It's an alternative to AA with the endless meetings, endless relapses, and the religion of 12 steps. Most people quit on their own.They don't use god; theyuse their will power. The cravings stop after a period of time and you just have to tough it out. You can get the book at the library for free--there is no 15k rehab programs required.

You're a talented guy! I'd love to engage you on some of your other thoughts.

Geoff

[Lokyn]

Also, Dude, you may have a drinking problem. I am not going to preach to you; I just want to pass on some information which could help---IN THE EVENT YOU DECIDE THAT YOU WANT TO QUIT.

Go away.