The Ultimate Fighter 5 Finale

[Tucker Max]

Date: June 23, 2007
Location: Las Vegas, Nev.
Venue: The Palms
Broadcast: Spike TV

Main Card

* B.J. Penn vs. Jens Pulver
* Nate Diaz (Finalist #1) vs. Manny Gamburyan (Finalist #2)
* Roger Huerta vs. Doug Evans
* Thales Leites vs. Floyd Sword

Undercard

* Joe Lauzon vs. Brandon Melendez
* Cole Miller vs. Andy Wang
* Rob Emerson Vs. Gray Maynard
* Allen Berube vs. Leonard Garcia
* Brian Geraghty vs. Matt Wiman

I am excited about this. I wonder which undercard fights make it onto TV--I am betting the Lauzon fight is a good one. And I bet Maynard whips Emerson.

But of course, BJ v. Jens is the big one. I guess the main question is what BJ Penn will show up. If he's in shape and motivated, I don't see Jens staying with him at all.

And for the record, I am predicting that Manny works Nate over and wins by TKO, ref stoppage due to strikes.

[Dragon Breath]

Indeed, June and July are going to be very good to us UFC-wise. This is the best TUF-finale in recent memory.

Penn should beat Pulver, then again, he was supposed to the first time they fought. I think B.J. comes into this prepared and dominates.

Main Card

* B.J. Penn via TKO
* Nate Diaz via submission
* Roger Huerta via brutal ground and pound
* Thales Leites via submission

Undercard

* Joe Lauzon - TKO
* Cole Miller - submission
* Gray Maynard - vicious ground and pound
* Leonard Garcia - by whatever he wants
* Matt Wiman - TKO

[NJCarder]

Main Card

* B.J. Penn by whatever he wants it to be.
* Manny by boring lay and pray decision.
* Roger Huerta by TKO
* Thales Leites by TKO

Undercard

* Joe Lauzon
* Cole Miller
* Gray Maynard
* Leonard Garcia
* Matt Wiman

[Tucker Max]

* Leonard Garcia - by whatever he wants

This is a really funny fight--Garcia is so far out of Berube's league its comical. He submits him in under 2 mins, easy. A vicious rear naked, I bet.

[joshdeere1982]

This is definitely the best season finale card that TUF has had to date. I think (and hope) we'll see the Prodigy show up reminiscent of his classic fights in the past. He's back at 155, so he won't be carrying around the extra weight he had to put on for the 170 fights, he has a genuine dislike for Pulver and wants to avenge the original decision, and of course he's more than due to break out the slump (if you want to call it that) from the GSP/Hughes fights. BJ has more to lose than Pulver, he'll be ready and vicious. Is it officially confirmed Pulver is going to drop to featherweight after this fight?

I'm also in the camp hoping for the Lauzon fight to be aired. I like his attitude and I think we'll see a lot more from this kid in the coming years.

[Flea]

Main Card

* B.J. Penn - submission
* Nate Diaz - TKO strikes
* Roger Huerta - GNP all day

Undercard

* Joe Lauzon - brutal GNP
* Andy Wang - submission (assuming cole wants the fight on the ground)
* Gray Maynard - GNP
* Leonard Garcia - berube panic attack pre fight
* Brian Geraghty - submission

[Seanny Rotten]

This is a really funny fight--Garcia is so far out of Berube's league its comical. He submits him in under 2 mins, easy. A vicious rear naked, I bet.
Both of those fighters were on the Bubba the Love Sponge (http://www.btls.com) show on Howard 101, Sirius and Bubba flat out told Berube he was going to get his ass kicked. The funny thing is that Berube's been on the Bubba show every Friday since the Ultimate Fighter started.

[Il Duce]

I was really suprised to see Berube get a fight on the finale, considering how pissed Dana was over the on show fight. I'm thinking letting Garcia destroy him is his way of punishing "The Monstah." Come to think of it, he seemed pretty pissed at Wang as well after that switching teams debacle. Anyway, great card.

[Tucker Max]

Main Card
* Nate Diaz - TKO strikes

You think Nate Diaz is going to out STRIKE Manny? Are you kidding?

[Tucker Max]

Both of those fighters were on the Bubba the Love Sponge (http://www.btls.com) show on Howard 101, Sirius and Bubba flat out told Berube he was going to get his ass kicked. The funny thing is that Berube's been on the Bubba show every Friday since the Ultimate Fighter started.

I'm a little shocked the Nevada commission approved that fight. Seems like a huge mismatch.

I can't find any lines for that fight--anyone know of any?

[Tonyo33]

I'm a little shocked the Nevada commission approved that fight. Seems like a huge mismatch.

I can't find any lines for that fight--anyone know of any?

Sportsbook.com usually has a lot of odds on fights. The only one that's up right now is Penn at -330, Pulver +260. They say the odds for the rest of the fights are off right now, so hopefully they'll post them soon.

Here's a direct link to al the fights sportsbook.com has available. (http://www.belmont.com/live_lines_mma-match-ups.htm) I assume most of the sites are just using a service and posting the same lines.

[Flea]

You think Nate Diaz is going to out STRIKE Manny? Are you kidding?

The kid can strike Tucker, we just haven't seen it this season. Watch him put a beating on Hermes Franca standing up.

Nate vs Hermes (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/hermes%2Bfranca/video/xubl1_wec24-nathan-diaz-vs-hermes-franca)

edit: Hermes also has a similar body frame to Manny. I thought if any of my picks were questionable it would have been Wang or Brian

[Tucker Max]

The kid can strike Tucker, we just haven't seen it this season. Watch him put a beating on Hermes Franca standing up.

Nate vs Hermes (http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/hermes%2Bfranca/video/xubl1_wec24-nathan-diaz-vs-hermes-franca)

edit: Hermes also has a similar body frame to Manny. I thought if any of my picks were questionable it would have been Wang or Brian

All season he took beatings going for submissions, both against Corey and the last fight. The kid can fight no question, and he can throw, but I don't see him winning anything by strike over a good opponent, especially someone like Manny who has a good chin and has an excellent ground game.

If these two fight like they did in the prelims, Manny will be in Nate's guard the whole fight, and it will come down to how well Manny can strike while fending off sub attempts, and how much punishment Nate can absorb before he gets a sub. I am thinking Manny's ground and pound beats Nate's guard game, but man--Nate beating Manny with strikes would be a huge shock, based on these guys past, especially considering that Manny does not have a great stand up game and will constantly go for the take down. This whole fight is going to be on the ground, and I can't imagine Nate is going to be on top for most of that.

[Tucker Max]

I will say this:

When Manny gets tired against a superior stand up guy, he tends to go for bad or risky takedowns, and I can definitely see Nate catching him with a knee or something. In that case, yes a KO is very realistic.

[G-rant]

All season he took beatings going for submissions, both against Corey and the last fight. The kid can fight no question, and he can throw, but I don't see him winning anything by strike over a good opponent, especially someone like Manny who has a good chin and has an excellent ground game.

If these two fight like they did in the prelims, Manny will be in Nate's guard the whole fight, and it will come down to how well Manny can strike while fending off sub attempts, and how much punishment Nate can absorb before he gets a sub. I am thinking Manny's ground and pound beats Nate's guard game, but man--Nate beating Manny with strikes would be a huge shock, based on these guys past, especially considering that Manny does not have a great stand up game and will constantly go for the take down. This whole fight is going to be on the ground, and I can't imagine Nate is going to be on top for most of that.

Nate might pull guard only to sweep him and get full mount. From there he could TKO him. That or a flying knee if Manny goes for a takedown. Diaz can strike just like his bro.

[Napa]

Joe Lauzon notes on Manny


The first issue was his overhand right. Manny absolutely loves to come up and swing for the fences and bomb that overhand right to close the distance. He dropped Noah with it, and he caught Wiman with it a few times as well. I had to be careful of it, but I had a lot of reach and did a good job at keeping him away, so it never really played into our fight. It was something to watch out for, but I didn’t see it as a real problem.

The next thing was his height. Manny is super short and we jokingly referred to him as “the bad elf.” We were training for the fight and doing ground and pound and B.J. would be yelling, “Bad elf! Bad elf!” while I threw punches. It was kind of funny, but it’s really accurate. Manny is built like a tank, and while his reach is short, his upper body is enormous. I knew I didn’t want to get into any kind of clinch with him because he is so thick and I was worried he would throw me on my head coming from such a strong judo background. We worked in stuffing his shots in practice and working the front headlock, but come fight time I just couldn’t get it done to the point I wanted. Manny was great at closing the distance and taking me down.

The next thing I noted was his grappling and scrambling. I stuffed some of Manny’s takedowns, but I could never capitalize and get on top. He was really good at scrambling. It seemed like whenever I would make space or create an opening, he would either close it down right away or he would beat me to wherever I was trying to go. I have a very explosive style which makes for exciting fights, but I have trouble sometimes with someone that’s just trying to slow the pace and grind the fight down to a crawl.

Manny did a great job of staying safe and controlling. Like Wiman had said about his own fight, I didn’t feel like Manny did a lot of damage to me. I had a swollen lip, which I think might have been from a head butt, but I felt like I didn’t really absorb that much. Aside from my lip, I don’t think I had a mark on my face. I did a good job on bottom of staying safe and not taking damage, but I couldn’t get up or get anything going, so it wasn’t enough. Manny has short arms and no neck with a huge upper body, so I had a hell of a time trying to create any openings. Manny controlled the fight and did everything he needed in order to win the fight.

[Kakutogi]

You think Nate Diaz is going to out STRIKE Manny? Are you kidding?

Why not? He's much more technical and has a reach advantage. Should Manny take him down, then I would say of course Nate by submission, but I don't think Manny will have the advantage standing.

[Kakutogi]

But of course, BJ v. Jens is the big one. I guess the main question is what BJ Penn will show up. If he's in shape and motivated, I don't see Jens staying with him at all.

Yeah, this has always been the question in the second half of BJ's career. I'm a big fan of his, because I think he has the most talent out of any fighter. But god damn it he doesn't have the drive, and consequently, the cardio.

Well, I know my whole gym's rooting for Pulver, but I don't know how he's been training either.

[Bizznatch]

Nate Diaz's stand up has not looked good at all throughout the entire show. I think his only real hope is to submit Manny, which I doubt will happen.

Manville by decision and three rounds of ground and pound.

[Tucker Max]

Why not? He's much more technical and has a reach advantage. Should Manny take him down, then I would say of course Nate by submission, but I don't think Manny will have the advantage standing.

You really are retarded. Go read that Lauzon post about Manny; he's a smart guy and breaks Manny down well. Try thinking about things before you shoot off at the mouth.

[Tucker Max]

Nate might pull guard only to sweep him and get full mount. From there he could TKO him. That or a flying knee if Manny goes for a takedown. Diaz can strike just like his bro.

No, he can't. His brother stood and traded shots with Gomi. Nate CANNOT DO THAT. Did any of you idiots watch the any of his fucking fights on TUF? Do you have any ability to understand the things your eyes register? Fucking-a, Nate was getting hosed by that awful retard who didn't even know what a triangle was. Look, if you want to predict that Nate will win whatever, but to say his stand up is good is just fucking retarded.

And what the fuck is that first sentence? Nate did nothing but pull guard in all his TUF fights and work for submissions while eating punches. Why the fuck do you think he's going to be doing something else in this fight? You training with him? Like Manny is just going to let him sweep him. Did you see Manny absolutely control Wiman and Lauzon when they had guard on him? So what makes you think Diaz--who is not as strong as either of those guys--is just going to sweep him at will? And have you seen anyone stay mounted on Manny in TUF? Why do you think this fight will be different?

[Kakutogi]

You really are retarded. Go read that Lauzon post about Manny; he's a smart guy and breaks Manny down well. Try thinking about things before you shoot off at the mouth.

I've already read his blog, and I watched his fight with Franca, who is much more experienced than Manny. Nate was doing pretty good against a fighter with the same build and style (stand-up wise at least), but bigger, stronger, and far more experienced, before he got armbarred. When you say he got hosed in his fight with Hill, that's not really fair, everybody has trouble with an opponent with a longer reach and height. The difference between the two is enormous, Manny being the shortest fighter in the house, Corey being the tallest.

To the best of my knowledge, Nate hasn't been KO'ed yet either, so I don't know how good of a chin he has, and i don't want to assume its made of iron just because his brother's is.

[Bizznatch]

No, he can't. His brother stood and traded shots with Gomi. Nate CANNOT DO THAT.

Takanori Gomi's preparation is notorious for being suspect, and he was absolutely exhausted in that fight. However, it didn't stop him from breaking Nick's orbital bone. I give Nick all the credit in the world for locking up that Gogo, but he's hardly a great striker at welterweight or lightweight. However, he's definitely as hard as a coffin nail.

As for Nate's fight with Franca, Hermes is hardly a technical striker and he gave up a reach advantage to Nate. I mean, Hermes hurt Fisher with a punch that started behind his right ass cheek for Christ's sakes.

If Nate is planning to stand with Manny, he'll eat some solid shots. Manny gave up the reach advantage in every single fight he was in, but he always managed to close the distance and land punches. You can't tell me that Nate Diaz is a better striker or wrestler than Wiman or Lauzon and there was no question that Manny dominated those fights. This pretty much puts the fight on the floor unless Manny wants to keep it standing.

Did you see Manny absolutely control Wiman and Lauzon when they had guard on him? So what makes you think Diaz--who is not as strong as either of those guys--is just going to sweep him at will? And have you seen anyone stay mounted on Manny in TUF? Why do you think this fight will be different?

All I can say is that Nate Diaz has better jiu jitsu than Wiman and Lauzon. Does that mean he's going to have Manny on roller skates the entire fight? No way. If you watched the other fighters you could always hear Manny coaching from the corner. The guy is very knowledgeable and won't get caught like Hill or Maynard did. Nate Diaz is a warrior and he'll go the distance, but he'll go the distance on the bottom and be eating elbows and punches for a majority of the time.

[Flea]

I think everyones basically repeating the same thing. Nates standup on TUF was questionably terrible. Manny throws his overhand right and takes them down with an absolutely superior clinch game, one that Nate has never been up against.

Manny in Nates guard can not and will not be like Corey or someone else in Nates guard. The mofo has absolutely no neck as Joe Lauzon pointed out, and is impossibly strong and wide. That being said, if Nate can get a few sweeps that Lauzon didn't attempt (a possibility for sure) then it can get interesting.

Manny took a pretty solid knee to the head in Joes match. Hopefully Nate does the homework and tries those knees and inside hooks or uppercuts when Manny shoots.

My pick was based on whos style i like and what id like to see. It definitely isn't the most likely result, but I'm feeling lucky.

As for mentioning the Franca fight i was just pointing out Nates standup isn't THAT bad compared to what we've seen in TUF of him. Furthermore Nate owned Franca in the clinch, which will not only be impossible against Manny (Judo skills) but simply suicide to try to attempt. The only similarities between Manny and Hermes are their Height and heavy overhand rights.

[garbanzobean]

All I can say is that Nate Diaz has better jiu jitsu than Wiman and Lauzon. Does that mean he's going to have Manny on roller skates the entire fight? No way. If you watched the other fighters you could always hear Manny coaching from the corner. The guy is very knowledgeable and won't get caught like Hill or Maynard did. Nate Diaz is a warrior and he'll go the distance, but he'll go the distance on the bottom and be eating elbows and punches for a majority of the time.I'm a huge fan of Lauzon. HUGE. I was rooting for him the entire way through even having heard the rumored final matchup months ago. Even when some idiot at UFC.com accidentally put the results of the Lauzon and Manny fight up on the show descriptions last week days before it actually aired, I continued to hope that it was all a trick. Joe has made a name for himself for many things, such as actually posting useful information on internet forums instead of spamming advertisement, aka Rhadi Ferguson. That's just on the internet. He's even cooler in real life. He's a genuinely good guy, and I'm a permanent fan of his.

But his ground game, while really strong, is still kind of sloppy, and a little top-dependent to boot. Manny was a terrible matchup for him. As I've discussed in the other TUF thread, and as should be obvious to most people due to his small size, Manny's bottom game isn't that great, but he compensates for it with his strength, escapes from the back and underneath mount, and his dominating top game. In a lot of respects, Manny's small size works really well for him. Fighters like Manny are so oddly proportioned that they're actually really hard to deal with in a fight, and they can learn to use it to their advantage if they get proper training. Sherk comes to mind as another example of this.

I don't think anyone will be surprised to see Manny come out, throw a couple big overhand rights, and then clinch for the takedown, just like his fight with Joe. Nate might defend the takedown once or twice, but eventually he's going to get taken down. Nate's hands aren't bad, but they're not as good as his brother's, and standing and striking with a guy that short is going to be awkward anyway. At some point, Nate's going to get taken down. Probably early, and probably a lot more than once.

The big question mark for me is how Manny is going to deal with Nate Diaz's guard. Cesar Gracie's fighters have MMA guardwork that is fairly unrivaled right now, and Nate is up there even among them. Manny really didn't do much damage to Joe, and Diaz's guard is A LOT better than Joe's. Beyond that, Diaz is a lot trickier than Joe. He's actively seeking submissions even when he's getting his face punched in. He throws hard strikes from the bottom while seeking submissions. His half guard for MMA is excellent (A rare thing. Most fighters end up just pinning themselves down in what is fine for sport BJJ and sub grappling, but is generally a really bad position to fight from in MMA. See Pe de Pano vs. Frank Mir.), his escapes from side control and mount are excellent, and he's good at taking the back.

Even with all that, this is a hard fight to call. Manny has a lot of upside: His compact, thick body and short, muscular limbs and neck mean Diaz isn't going to have a lot to work with when he starts looking to leverage out a body part or sink in a choke. Having worked with Gokor for a lot of his life, Manny's likely going to have great leglocks and leglock defense, which is normally a good equalizer against guys like him. Manny WILL NOT look to stand with Diaz, he WILL get takedowns, and he WILL end up on top. But I don't think he'll be able to knock Diaz out once the fight gets to the ground, or force a stoppage, and I definitely don't think he'll be able to submit him. He might grind out a decision, but I'm choosing to go on faith that Diaz will end up catching him in something. It won't be an armbar or a leg lock. I'm predicting a choke. Maybe an RNC, but more likely something from guard. I don't think Diaz will be able to guillotine Manny's neck. More likely, he'll sink in a triangle.

What do I really hope to see, though? The first Gogoplata in the UFC. Another north south reverse guillotine (aka The Monson Choke) would be funny, too.

[Kakutogi]

I think everyones basically repeating the same thing. Nates standup on TUF was questionably terrible. Manny throws his overhand right and takes them down with an absolutely superior clinch game, one that Nate has never been up against.

Manny in Nates guard can not and will not be like Corey or someone else in Nates guard. The mofo has absolutely no neck as Joe Lauzon pointed out, and is impossibly strong and wide. That being said, if Nate can get a few sweeps that Lauzon didn't attempt (a possibility for sure) then it can get interesting.

Manny took a pretty solid knee to the head in Joes match. Hopefully Nate does the homework and tries those knees and inside hooks or uppercuts when Manny shoots.

My pick was based on whos style i like and what id like to see. It definitely isn't the most likely result, but I'm feeling lucky.

As for mentioning the Franca fight i was just pointing out Nates standup isn't THAT bad compared to what we've seen in TUF of him. Furthermore Nate owned Franca in the clinch, which will not only be impossible against Manny (Judo skills) but simply suicide to try to attempt. The only similarities between Manny and Hermes are their Height and heavy overhand rights.

I definitely agree it is very improbable that Nate will win by a KO or TKO, but I think his fights on TUF don't do justice for his standup abilities.

I think it will make for a very interesting ground fight, with Nate hopefully capitalizing when Manny stands up to stack and pound away.

[Tucker Max]

whole post

I would just like to point out to some of you: THAT is how you break down a fight.

Analysis that is based on actual observations of actual behavior in fights, not whatever bullshit you feel like spouting. Its not important who you pick, or what your opinion is, just back it up with intelligent analysis and reasoned thinking. It makes for better threads and more interesting discussion. Very few of us as as experienced or knowledge as gb, but al of us can do what he did: Watch the fights, pay attention to what happened, understand it, and then speak about it intelligently.

And if you can't do that, then do one of two things: Ask the smart guys for help, or don't post at all. Very simple.



On to the topic: I disagree with GB, simple because I don't think that Diaz will catch Manny. Karo has never been submitted in a fight, and Manny is not Karo, but he has been rolling with him for years. I don't think either of these guys will get submitted, and judging by how Manny handled the other guards, I don't see him getting caught in Diaz's choke. But hey--weirder things have happened.

[NJCarder]

I see the Manny/Nate fight going the exact same way that Sherk vs Florian went. In fact I think its almost the exact same fight. I don't think that Diaz's guard is that much better than Kenny Florians from a BJJ standpoint. Florian has pretty damn sick jiu-jitsu. Florians striking was better than Sherk's striking. Just like I think Nate's is better than Mannys. I think Manny takes him down and smothers him for 3 rounds just like Sherk smothered Florian. The only way i'm seeing Nate winning this is by cut or slick submission out of nowhere.

[Porgee]

I say Berube starts bleeding before the fight starts. From his vagina.

[garbanzobean]

On to the topic: I disagree with GB, simple because I don't think that Diaz will catch Manny. Karo has never been submitted in a fight, and Manny is not Karo, but he has been rolling with him for years. I don't think either of these guys will get submitted, and judging by how Manny handled the other guards, I don't see him getting caught in Diaz's choke. But hey--weirder things have happened.Thanks for the complement.

Tucker has a very good point. Manny has not been submitted in any fights that I know of. In fact, his only losses that I'm aware of are a both from decisions: Once in 1999 to John Pierro, who I don't know anything about, and in 2001 to Sean "Muscle Shark" Sherk. You may recognize him as the current UFC light heavyweight champion, who has only lost to Matt Hughes and George St. Pierre. Suggesting that Nate Diaz, who is a really tough fighter but not Sherk-caliber yet, will submit him is kind of out there. On the other hand, I've not been really impressed with Gamburyan's KO power, and I don't see him dominating Diaz enough to force a referee stoppage. I also don't see Diaz fighting from the top very much, and while Nate taking his back is possible, I think Manny's defense is better than that. That's 15 minutes of time for Diaz to be actively hunting for a submission.

It's definitely a call I'm making based on my heart, and probably in the face of logic, which says "Manny by Decision," but I've gotta go with my gut on this one.

Either way, it's a really interesting matchup. Something a lot of people can't appreciate is that there's a sort of unspoken Hayastan Grappling vs. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu rivalry going on here, which makes this fight special and more exciting for me.

[Tucker Max]

Something a lot of people can't appreciate is that there's a sort of unspoken Hayastan Grappling vs. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu rivalry going on here, which makes this fight special and more exciting for me.

What do you mean? Can you explain more? I mean, I know Karo and Manny came up with the Hayastan system and what not, but what are the real differences and what is the rivalry?

And how does the Hayastan system differ, in real terms, from BJJ? Isn't MMA at the point where there aren't anymore "secrets" so to speak?

[Gylius]

Garbanzobean posted this on the TUF 5 Thread which is mostly done now that you put the finale thread up.

Which part of it? I don't know what your level of knowledge is in MMA or grappling, so it's hard to me to answer your question. Since I don't know, I'll assume you don't know anything and work from there.

Rolling = the BJJ/submission grappling term for its version of sparring. Like Randori in Judo.

Hayastan = A grappling system developed by Gokor Chivichyan and Gene Lebell. If you don't know either one of these names, then I'm probably wasting my time by typing this all out, but I'll try to explain as best I can. Gokor is a Sambo legend who also happens to be very good at wrestling and Judo. He makes a lot of ridiculous claims about his skill ala Rickson Gracie, but, like Rickson, has a ridiculous amount of skill regardless of his supposed 90,000,000,000 battlefield victories. "Judo" Gene Lebell is a legend in his own right, and if you don't know who he is, you should really take the time to at least look him up on wikipedia. He's led an interesting life. Chances are, you've seen him in a lot of movies.

Anyway, if you've spent a minute or two on the mats rolling with people who come from different types of grappling backgrounds. You realize quite quickly that people from different backgrounds of grappling arts roll very differently, as their arts emphasize different areas. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, as a broad generalization, places much less emphasis on clinching and takedowns than Judo or wrestling, which do not have the intricate groundwork of BJJ. Sambo is somewhere in between, with an added emphasis on leg locks, and depending on what tradition, chokes might be de-emphasized. None of these traditions is likely to create fighters with the guardwork of a good BJJ player, but they're going to be stronger in other areas.

Hayastan, as a system, tends to spring more from Judo, SAMBO, and wrestling than any real BJJ influence, so they're kind of strange to roll with in grappling tournaments, MMA, and even just randori style training. A lot of them have top games that might give a purple belt fits, but they might also get wrecked in some white belt's guard. Since Manny Gamburyan (http://gokor.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=99) was most definitely a Hayastan-style fighter in the past, and may still be unless he's at Legends with Karo now (and so is Karo, regardless of what he claims now), it is of interest to note how many people have trouble with how he grapples on the show. That is what I mean by "weird." He doesn't grapple like most people are used to, and tends to be very strong in some areas that are unusual, and also might be fairly weak in some areas of grappling that the average viewer who equates all grappling with wrestling or BJJ might not expect.

Which is why I'm predicting that Manny gets eaten alive by Nate Diaz's guard, but I guess that's a different post.

[Tucker Max]

Here is a good piece on the fight:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/boxing/la-meltzcol18jun18,1,5776557.story?coll=&ctrack=1&cset=true

[Napa]

Very few of us as as experienced or knowledge as gb, but al of us can do what he did: Watch the fights, pay attention to what happened, understand it, and then speak about it intelligently.


BJ Penn has free videos of his gym training sessions (with warm up, techniques, match of the day) and basic tutorial 101 of MMA fighting (Wrestling, Stand up, and BJJ with and without GI) that can help the casual fan gain a better understanding of the sport.

http://www.bjpenn.com/

[Kakutogi]

BJ Penn has free videos of his gym training sessions (with warm up, techniques, match of the day) and basic tutorial 101 of MMA fighting (Wrestling, Stand up, and BJJ with and without GI) that can help the casual fan gain a better understanding of the sport.

http://www.bjpenn.com/

www.lockflow.com is awesome too, Half of Eddie Bravo's Book is posted up there, and a whole bunch of other pros have submitted moves to their library, not just grapplers. If you need to look up something you can just type in to google

"Electric Chair Lockflow"

and it'll show you what the electric chair is. Aside from that. It is far more extensive than Kesting's site

[garbanzobean]

It is far more extensive than Kesting's siteKesting's website ( www.grapplearts.com ) is about quality, not quantity. He makes some of the best instructionals in the business and he sells them for really reasonable prices. Also, his blog entries are generally useful. The same cannot be said for Lockflow, which is hit or miss in terms of quality. It has gotten a lot better in the past year or so, though.

[TheGC]

Just an FYI - After watching some of the Pulver/Penn special on Spike last night, it appears that Corey Hill is training with Pulver at MFS.

[Kakutogi]

Kesting's website ( www.grapplearts.com ) is about quality, not quantity. He makes some of the best instructionals in the business and he sells them for really reasonable prices. Also, his blog entries are generally useful. The same cannot be said for Lockflow, which is hit or miss in terms of quality. It has gotten a lot better in the past year or so, though.

Yes, that's definitely true, but it isn't updated that much, save for the pic of the week and his emails. His youtube rear naked choke demonstration is awesome though.

[Shua]

The only way Diaz wins this fight by t(ko) is from sweeping Manny and taking mount and ground and pounding him out. That said Diaz has much better standup than was showcased on the show. He is a very good striker. I have seen him fight live twice and both times he fought the majority of the fight from his feet. He really is just the same fighter as his brother but without quite as heavy as hands (and when I say heavy I do not mean that Nick's are heavy just he has more power than Nate.) It is a sloppy but very effective stand up in my opinion.

I think the Diaz you saw on the show was a case of who he was fighting. With Emerson he was fighting a guy that was a kick boxer and basically a stand up fighter who was a better striker but he had no ground game so that is where Diaz wanted the fight to go. Against Corey Hill he knew the only way he was losing the fight was if he stood up and traded with him and it was on of the few fighters at 155 where he won’t have a reach advantage. Against Gray I think he probably wanted to keep the fight on his feet but Gray’s wrestling was too good and he couldn’t keep up so he chose/had to fight from his guard.

If the fight stays on their feet Diaz should be able to win this pretty convincingly. The only reason I don’t think he wins from stand up is because I think Manny will try and take this to the ground and be successful at doing it. Once this goes to the ground you will see Manny try and control the fight from top and Diaz work submissions from the bottom. My gut instinct says that Diaz will have an easy time with Manny and submit him but I thought that about Manny in the quarters and Semis and don’t want to under estimate him. I just went back and rewatched the semis and I think that Manny would be susceptible to a bunch of submissions from Diaz’s guard. He seemed kind of careless while in Lauzon’s guard although I don’t think this will necessarily be the case against someone with a guard game like Diaz. I am going to say Diaz submits Manny. But I am not sure. I will say this thoug, if it goes to decision there is no way Diaz wins because he will have spent most of the fight from his back.

Basically I am trying to talk myself out of why Diaz will win this fight.

What is everyone’s thought on the Pulver – Penn fight. I cannot be objective on this fight. This is like a Yankee fan being able to objectively discuss the Red Sox. Penn is my favorite fighter and I think he is easily the most gifted fighter in the sport. He just for some reason doesn’t always show up. I think his hatred for Pulver will make him show up in shape and from there it will be a matter of skill which I think clearly is on Penn’s side.

If this stays on their feet Pulver has a chance. He has heavy hands and is as good of a striker as Penn. But Penn has one of the best chins in the sport. He has never really been hurt. Even against Ryoto Machida who fights at 205 he didn’t really get hurt. The only time he got stopped was against Hughes and while the fight should have been stopped given the position he wasn’t really hurt then either. To me those are the only fights he has really lost. I think he won the GSP and the first Pulver fight. Again I know I am biased.

If this goes to the ground there is no way Pulver can compete with Penn. He is just too good on the ground. That is the last place Pulver wants this thing. I think this is going to end with some sort of arm lock because BJ has talked about he wants to break Pulver’s left shoulder and I really think he is going to try and do this.

[NJCarder]

The only way Baby Jay loses this is if he starts dominating it early and gets bored. Just like he did with GSP. He coudl have easily won that fight but he got bored. He came out and acted like he didnt even care. BJ is the most frustrating fighter in the world.

[Bizznatch]

I don't think any professional fighter has stood toe to toe in competition and gotten bored. Guys get bored in training, guys get bored in the locker room, guys get bored after fucking the same girl for 30 years, but guys don't get bored in the cage. BJ got tired in that fight. Plain and simple. He looked really good in round one hurting Georges with lots of precision jabs, an inadvertant eye poke, and an uppercut that clipped the tip of his nose. But as the rounds went on, you saw GSP come out more aggressively seeking to put BJ on the ground and sap his energy with leg kicks. BJ faded in rounds two and three, and it cost him the fight. In the Hughes fight it was posted on BJ's website that he had seperated his ribs taking Matt's back, so it's hard for me to point a finger directly at his cardio for being to blame for the loss. However, BJ sure did look amazing for the first two rounds against Hughes and then just came out flat in the third, so an injury would seem like a plausible explanation.

The bottom line is that Jens Pulver's biggest strengths are his striking and his wrestling. But there's no way in hell that he's a better striker than Georges or a better wrestler than Hughes, both of whom BJ dominated for an extended period of time.

Also, BJ should be in shape at 155, and for once he won't be giving up twenty pounds by fight time. I believe at his last weigh in BJ came in at 167. The size disadvantage falls on Pulver, who has been talking about dropping down a weight class because 155 is not his natural fighting weight.

What's all this mean? It means that this fight is extremely difficult for Jens because he's at a disadvantage no matter where the fight goes. He's not better than BJ at anything. I hate to count someone out, but I think that Jens' only real chance in this fight is if BJ takes him lightly and gets caught with something.

[NJCarder]

BJ gets bored all of the time. I think it's in his psychology. Its the reason he finds it necessary to move up in weight classes all the time or bounce from organization to organization. He will start out a fight by completely dominating someone. GSP, Jens Pulver, Matt Hughes (except the injury) and then he will realize that its so easy and he will get lazy. GSP and Jens Pulver were perfect examples of this. Yes GSP came out a little more aggressive in rounds 2 and 3 and started taking him down. That is ALL GSP did. At the end of the fight GSP was a complete mess. BJ said it himself when he said, "i dont know how he won the fight, aftewards i went to the bar and he went to the hospital." He didnt get tired in the Jens fight either at his natural weight. He simply got bored. BJ is the most unprofessional fighter in the world. He hates to train and he has to be constantly tested otherwise he gets bored and stops trying his hardest. Basically BJ has no motivation to fight so he can get bored. He comes from a family that was rich to begin with and he has people telling him constnatly that he is one of the greatest fighters in the world.

[Cus]

This is a really funny fight--Garcia is so far out of Berube's league its comical. He submits him in under 2 mins, easy. A vicious rear naked, I bet.
The league is just rewarding Garcia (and Huerta, for that matter) with an easy ass-whooping in front of a huge non-ppv audience, because their fight at UFC 69 was one of the best fights of the last few years and saved an otherwise terrible night of fights.

Plus, the night's all about the lightweights and after BJ/Jens it's hard to find many fighters with a better case for a title shot at 155 than Roger Huerta. In my book, the UFC 155 lb pecking order looks something like this:

Champ: Sherk
1) Franca
2) BJ
3) Fisher*
4) Stout
5) Huerta
6) Pulver
7) Joe Stevenson
8) Whoever wins TUF

*If Nick Diaz, Hayato Sakurai, or Takanori Goma get switched over from PRIDE, they're above Fisher.

As far as Huerta's matchup, I haven't heard much about Doug Evans (he's fought 4 or 5 times in an Alaska bar league). But it doesn't matter much because he's in for the beating of his life. My cousin trains with Roger at Dave Menne's gym in MN and says the kid gets tougher, quicker and crazier every day.

Side note: Menne used to train with Sherk, so if Huerta ever gets that title shot he'll have a huge advantage in his corner.

[Gylius]

Post

Well, that post is all kinds of wrong. He may get bored, but he isn't getting bored when he's fighting. It's far more likely, and probably true that he just doesn't train as hard as he should. BJ is so talented he gets away with it more often than not.

He switched organizations because he had contract disputes, not because he was bored. He fights at Welterweight now because his natural bodyweight makes staying around 155 to fight, hard for him. His last fight at 155 was 4 years ago. But don't take my word for it, he says it right here in this interview.

http://www.sportsline.com/mmaboxing/story/10230886

[Uncouth]

Well, that post is all kinds of wrong. He may get bored, but he isn't getting bored when he's fighting.

Yeah. How the hell do you get bored when you're locked in a cage with someone who wants to beat your ass in front of thousands of screaming, cheering people? I don't think it's even possible.

[garbanzobean]

Yeah. How the hell do you get bored when you're locked in a cage with someone who wants to beat your ass in front of thousands of screaming, cheering people? I don't think it's even possible.Quoted for emphasis.

I don't care who you are, YOU DO NOT GET BORED IN A FIGHT.

Getting frustrated in a fight is one thing. Getting discouraged because your gameplan isn't working or you opponent isn't lying on his back in an unconscious pile yet is one thing. Getting angry because your opponent is fighting not to lose instead of trying to beat you is one thing.

Getting bored? Are you fucking kidding me?

[Tucker Max]

Quoted for emphasis.

I don't care who you are, YOU DO NOT GET BORED IN A FIGHT.

Getting frustrated in a fight is one thing. Getting discouraged because your gameplan isn't working or you opponent isn't lying on his back in an unconscious pile yet is one thing. Getting angry because your opponent is fighting not to lose instead of trying to beat you is one thing.

Getting bored? Are you fucking kidding me?

I'm going to laugh when BJ dominates the first round against Jens, and then comes out for the second, throws a few more punches, then yawns and plays Jenga in the corner.

Then all of you who doubted the boredom hypothesis will feel stupid.

[Kakutogi]

It's not so much boredom, as it is lack of conditioning. There was an interview with him after he "lost" to GSP blaming his poor performance on his lacking attitude training in the fight. Basically he said while he loves fighting, he hates the rigorous preparation before a specific fight (cardio) and would not do this anymore. Well, it showed during the Hughes fight. I'm sure he's a happier guy during training now, but i'll be damned if he ever wins a decision again.

[TheDog]

It's not so much boredom, as it is lack of conditioning. There was an interview with him after he "lost" to GSP blaming his poor performance on his lacking attitude training in the fight.

Uh, how about the more obvious citing of Penn vs. Hughes. Had Penn had the wind, he would have spanked Hughes with facility. Penn does not like to train hard anymore, simple as that. Though I believe even if he comes out at 75%, he's still going to give Jens a smackdown.

[Kakutogi]

Uh, how about the more obvious citing of Penn vs. Hughes. Had Penn had the wind, he would have spanked Hughes with facility. Penn does not like to train hard anymore, simple as that. Though I believe even if he comes out at 75%, he's still going to give Jens a smackdown.

Well, the interview took place before the Hughes fight, but it was pretty obvious what happened there as well.

God damn he's talented.

[Il Duce]

Well, the interview took place before the Hughes fight, but it was pretty obvious what happened there as well.

God damn he's talented.

I think the Hughes fight was more a result of his rib injury then poor conditioning, though you could make the argument that conditioning could have prevented it.

In either case, I think BJ might be the best 155 in the world when he wants to be. And judging by the way he's been acting, he wants to beat Pulver bad. I expect him to be in great shape and to win big.

[AnotherName]

Bj has also stated (I believe on his website) that he is frustrated with his slide in the rankings, due to people doubting his heart and work ethic. The fight against Hughes was suppose to be his big turn around but with that rib injury its impossible to say if he was really in shape or not.

I would like to see Penn take the next 3-4 years and just dedicate himself to winning the lightweight and welterweight belts, after that he can go back to his old hot/cold self.

[The Antihero]

I'm not going to be near a TV for the next 72 hours, so I'd like to call it right now that:

1. Penn vs. Pulver; Pulver by KO.
2. Diaz vs. Gamburyan; Gamburyan by decision.

I called the Cro Cop vs. Gonzaga fight as well as Couture vs. Slyvia, so I'd like to see if I'm right with Penn vs. Pulver.

[NJCarder]

I really hope your not right. I've gotta take BJ Penn by sub in the 2nd. I'll agree with you on Manny by decision in a boring match on his part. I think Nate Diaz tries for Sub after Sub but gets blanketed by Manny.

[Dragon Breath]

I'm not going to be near a TV for the next 72 hours, so I'd like to call it right now that:

1. Penn vs. Pulver; Pulver by KO.
2. Diaz vs. Gamburyan; Gamburyan by decision.

I called the Cro Cop vs. Gonzaga fight as well as Couture vs. Slyvia, so I'd like to see if I'm right with Penn vs. Pulver.

Well, it is the year of the upset...

[AyresJ]

1.Penn vs Pulver;Penn by submission

2. Diaz vs Gamburyan; Gamburyan by decision

As NJCarder said I reckon Diaz will go for submission after submission but gets blanketed by Manny.

[Fatman95]

Spoiler Alert

The ending to the Emerson/Maynard fight has to be one of the strangest I've ever seen. And now it's even funnier--Maynard is denying ever being unconscious. I'm sorry, you don't spike your head on the mat without it taking some effect. Emerson seemed to agree.

Does anyone think that Maynard is telling the truth, that he didn't knock himself out? Is he posturing or, as Joe Rogan said, did he simply not remember losing consciousness?

Oh, and to get it on the record early,

Gamburyan by decision
Penn by knockout

[Tonyo33]

That was definately a strange ending. I don't quite understand it, but maybe someone else knows the rules better.

I want to see Manny and Jens win. I hope the rest of hte fights are as fun to watch as the last couple.

EDIT: How can you not make weight after being on TUF? What a chump.

[Il Duce]

WARNING WARNING SPOILERS BELOW

I was a little confused by Maynard/Emerson fight. I had to step away for a bit and I think I missed the announcment. Did it get declared a No Contest or not?

[Tonyo33]

WARNING WARNING SPOILERS BELOW

I was a little confused by Maynard/Emerson fight. I had to step away for a bit and I think I missed the announcment. Did it get declared a No Contest or not?

WARNING WARNING SPOILERS BELOW

Yup, a no contest.

Did Diaz really say Daniel White and bash the UFC?

[Fatman95]

Spoilers

Yeah, it was called a no contest. Maynard was pissed about it too. He kept arguing with Rogan that he wasn't really knocked out.

I'm not sure why the fight was ruled a no contest--I think Emerson should've won it, since Maynard knocked himself out before Emerson verbally tapped. And if Maynard wasn't really knocked out (as he claimed), then he should've won it.

EDIT: Is it just me, or does Jens Pulver sound almost identical to Meatwad from Aqua Teen Hunger Force?

[Napa]

Did Diaz really say Daniel White and bash the UFC?

Diaz says he got off to a slow start and has nothing but respect for Gamburyan. He also takes the time to trash the Nevada State Athletic Commission for not allowing his brother, UFC fight Nick Diaz, to corner him during the fight (Nick is currently suspended by the NSAC for failing a drug test). Nate does thank the UFC for getting Nick in the event, though.

UFCjunkie play-by-play (http://ufcjunkie.com/2007/06/23/the-ultimate-fighter-5-finale-live-results/#more-1914)

[Seanny Rotten]

UFCjunkie play-by-play (http://ufcjunkie.com/2007/06/23/the-ultimate-fighter-5-finale-live-results/#more-1914)
SPOILERS IN BEIGE:

Well he fucking won, didn't he (like I thought he would)?
Lightweights: Nate Diaz defeats Manny Gamburyan via submission (injury) — Round 2, 0:20

Now all we need is BJ to whup Jenns.

[Brad]

I've watched a lot of MMA and I've never seen someone use their legs like BJ did to trap Pulver's arm. Maybe we'll see more guys trying that.

Until the injury, the Manny/Diaz fight was going the way just about everyone predicted: Manny on top, Diaz working to submit from the bottom. Would've loved to have seen it go all 3 rounds to see if Diaz could've pulled something out.

Didn't Manny have some previous injuries before TUF? I thought they mentioned something during the show. It's tough to string together wins when you're injury prone.

Overall I thought it was a good show.

Edit: Andy Wang is the dumbest Asian in the world. Why does he continue to try to stand with better strikers?

[Il Duce]

Didn't Manny have some previous injuries before TUF? I thought they mentioned something during the show. It's tought to string together wins when you're injury prone.

Overall I thought it was a good show.

Yeah he mentioned in the interview that he had a recurring shoulder problem. Apparently his shoulder keeps popping out. Good for Jens and BJ that they're apparently buddy-buddy now. Right at the end of the fight I had a second where I thought BJ wasn't gonna let go of the choke, like he was trying to put Jens out rather then just get the tap, but I guess not.

[LanzaT]

Yeah he mentioned in the interview that he had a recurring shoulder problem. Apparently his shoulder keeps popping out. Good for Jens and BJ that they're apparently buddy-buddy now. Right at the end of the fight I had a second where I thought BJ wasn't gonna let go of the choke, like he was trying to put Jens out rather then just get the tap, but I guess not.

SPOILER ALERT:
I thought BJ released a bit late too. You could see the pain in Pulver's eyes/mouth. The ref had to force Penn's arms apart.

I'm pissed they didn't air the Garcia fight. I guess that was ended quickly. I was looking forward to that asshat getting his (for clarity's sake, I was looking forward to Garcia smashing dick-wagon's face in).

[NJCarder]

BJ Penn could have whipped Jens ass in the first round. Jens even admitted it at the end. I think BJ is simply in a level beyond Jens pulver. I hope Jens trains with BJ i think if Jens gets to the point where he can roll even half as good as BJ can on the ground that he will own 145. Urijah Faber is a beast tho.

[TheBunny]

What was the deal with Joe Lauzon? Anyone? What was his strategy there? Not go for the submission for fear of being rolled? Tucker and I can't figure it out.

[Brad]

What was the deal with Joe Lauzon? Anyone? What was his strategy there? Not go for the submission for fear of being rolled? Tucker and I can't figure it out.

Joe won by submission. Are you thinking of that idiot Andy Wang?

[TheBunny]

Joe won by submission. Are you thinking of that idiot Andy Wang?

No, Lauzon. He had three or four submissions set up and never sank them, and then after the fight it wasn't really clear why.

[Kakutogi]

He was incapable of sinking them at the time. It's hard to get the forearm under the chin on a fresh opponent. The heelhook was close, but evidently wasn't sunk.

[Shua]

SPOILER ALERT:
I thought BJ released a bit late too. You could see the pain in Pulver's eyes/mouth. The ref had to force Penn's arms apart.



We watched the replay and his eyes were closed. Watch it again. It was definitely late but I don't think it was on purpose.

I've watched a lot of MMA and I've never seen someone use their legs like BJ did to trap Pulver's arm. Maybe we'll see more guys trying that.



Dude, I have never even seen that period. In any grappling match. I have never seen anyone do that at jiu jitsu or in a tourney or in a MMA match. The guy is like a fucking rubber band. To be able to do that and hold it tight enough to keep it there while keeping a body triangle and sinking a rear naked choke is ridiculous.

Overall it was a good set of fights. I was impressed by BJ. He seemed to have come in in shape. I hope he stays at 155 for a few fights before he moves back up to avenge some losses. He is going to have to wait for Hughes and GSP so why not fight a couple of times at 155 before doing that. I would love to see him fight Sherk.

[Kakutogi]

Dude, I have never even seen that period. In any grappling match. I have never seen anyone do that at jiu jitsu or in a tourney or in a MMA match. The guy is like a fucking rubber band. To be able to do that and hold it tight enough to keep it there while keeping a body triangle and sinking a rear naked choke is ridiculous.


Marcelo Garcia does it all the time.

[Bizznatch]

Wow, what a weird card.

Maynard vs Emerson - Although it was very strange, I think the right decision was made in calling the fight a no contest. The only precedent for something like that has to be two guys simultaneously KOing one another. The conclusive damage was done to both fighters by the same move. Therefore at the same time they were theoretically unable to compete, and thus forcing the no contest.

However, watching it live I felt that Maynard won the fight. It was only after, when he toppled over as the doctor's came to check him out, did I really give much thought to it being a double KO/TKO/whatever the hell it was.

For Bunny, if you're referring to when Lauzon had Melendez's back I think Joe Rogan touched on the reasons why Joe wasn't really hunting for the choke. Melendez has extremely good rear naked choke defense, and is willing to give up his back to avoid punishing shots from the mount (due to the inability to strike to the back of the head). Then he just waits for, or creates some, space to spin within the back mount of his opponent, effectively putting him on top in his opponent's guard. By Joe not constantly reaching for the choke, it kept his hands free to control Melendez's upper body if Melendez were to try to spin into his guard, as well as the fact that he probably wasn't going to get the choke anyway so he might as well take what he could get from the position and score some points / inflict some damage. I'm actually a little surprised that Joe didn't transition to a body triangle to hold Melendez and then start blasting him with punches or work for a choke from the position. If I remember right, Joe primarily just had the hooks in. Another thing is that when most guys get on your back all you're worrying about is strikes to the side of your head and protecting your neck via hand fighting / tucking your chin. I'm really surprised more guys don't try to trap an arm with their legs (Joe had one trapped for a little but Melendez got it free) as it effectively opens up an entire side of an opponent's face for strikes or a choke.


Diaz got pretty lucky that Manny got hurt like that. He was definitely in for a war had that thing gone all three rounds, and being behind on the scorecards is not a good place to be against a guy like Manny who is content to stay on top, smother, and pound his way to victory.

BJ Penn and Jens Pulver - I just want to start this out by saying that Jens Pulver is pretty amazing. I was really surprised at how well he hung in there with BJ despite being in serious trouble multiple times. His submission defense was superb, evading the armbar really impressed me, and breaking the triangle showed how much heart he has. Pulver really came to fight and he made it a show. However, what surprised me the most was how articulate his post fight interview was

As for BJ, we really got to see a bit of a different side of him in this fight attacking from the top as opposed to using his takedown defense and ground game to minimize the amount of time he spent on his back (GSP/Hughes fights). He absolutely controlled Jens on the ground, and a lot of people got to see what someone with a good rear naked choke looks like. Most guys who give up chokes do so because they don't fight hands or they've just been punched enough in the side of the head that they know there's no way out and they might as well let the guy sink it. Jens didn't do that, he fought hands until BJ trapped his arm.

Also, BJ looked fantastic at 155 and had solid gas midway through round two when the fight ended, despite expending a lot of energy trying to finish that triangle. It's nice to know that BJ finally realized how much innate god given ability he was pissing away and got himself a strength and conditioning coach to ride his ass. An in shape BJ Penn is a very dangerous fighter at any weight, and I think that if he goes back up to 170 then he has a very good chance of reclaiming that title.

Oh, and he did hold the choke too long but right when he let it go he kind of had the "Oh shit" look on his face and I'm sure he instantly apologized. There were obviously no hard feelings about it. Who else is excited for a Pulver vs Faber fight? How about BJ vs Karo?

[BeerMonster]

We watched the replay and his eyes were closed. Watch it again. It was definitely late but I don't think it was on purpose.

Okay, his eyes were closed. But he didn't feel Pulver tapping on his arm, of the ref pulling on him for a second or so? It almost seemed like he was proving a point by not letting go. Rogan seemed like he was going to say something about it, then Goldberg interrupted and it was all forgotten. But that didn't seem accidental to me. BJ pinning Pulver's arm to earn the submission was awesome though, as previously mentioned.

After Pulver's speech, Penns "go to my website" garbage seemed kinda arrogant. But whatever, that's BJ. I'd love it if he stayed at 155, as Shua said...if there is a lightweight GP someday, send BJ. One UFC rep, and 15 Pride guys. BJ wins the tourney, hands down. I don't think anyone at 155/160 has a chance against a motivated BJ.

On a side note, I never thought I would ever type out the words "motivated BJ".

[Kakutogi]

The extended choke probably was on purpose, but it's no big deal really. Jens wasn't pissed. It's not a submission which can injure you, and it wasn't a throat choke that feels really uncomfortable and can make you vomit.

[Shua]

Okay, his eyes were closed. But he didn't feel Pulver tapping on his arm, of the ref pulling on him for a second or so? It almost seemed like he was proving a point by not letting go.

I don't know if it was on purpose or not. If your eyes are closed you could think it is Pulver trying to pull the arm. He looked like he felt bad and he immediately apologized. I thought at first it was on purpose but I am not sure.

[AnotherName]

its a fight! I'm sure, even for someone as good as Bj Penn, the shift from kill/fight/crush to normal takes a few seconds for the mental gears to down shift.

Also, Pulver pretty much Houdini'ed his way out of the arm-bar and triangle, so I doubt Bj wanted to take any chances on the choke.

[Mike Gill]

Hey BJ; it's great when you make a comment to drive site traffic and then your server dishes this up:

Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, webadmin@kundenserver.de and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

Additionally, a 500 Internal Server Error error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

[TheDog]

In regards to the Penn/Pulver fight. Pretty much what happens when you put an A class fighter against a B class. I'm really baffled as to why people keep on saying Pulver is such an amazing striker. He's most definitely not a better striker then BJ. For a smaller framed fighter, you'd expect Pulver to have slicker looking standup then BJ. He did not, Pulvers standup looked sloppier then BJ's, the bigger guy.

I'm a little dissapointed that BJ elected to make it a ground fight. I think he could have rocked him just as badly striking, and that would have been the ultimate insult to Pulver, beating him at his own game.

[Dragon Breath]

Huerta vs. Evans - Wow, color me impressed with Evans, he had Huerta in some serious trouble. Evans' stand-up looked crisp and his clinch was really strong. Huerta is such a dynamic fighter he was able to pull off that crazy reversal, otherwise this could have been another big upset. However, Huerta stays in line with a future title shot.

Maynard vs. Emerson - How funny was that post-fight interview? Maynard was clearly unconscious. The telling shot was when Maynard fell backwards from his knees and still looked completely out of it.

This is why I love Joe Rogan as a UFC commentator. He is not afraid. The guy knows his shit and wouldn't back down from Maynard's stance. Rogan was totally right in what he said. "Dude, you're out". I love it.

I don't blame Gray for being so adamant though, like Rogan said, he probably doesn't remember anything. Anyway, a crazy ending.

Lauzon vs. Melendez- Domination. Lauzon looked great and the fight was never in doubt. How do you not make weight? Seriously? I doubt we'll see Melendez again.

Miller vs. Wang- During this fight B.J Penn had to be in his locker room screaming at the TV, "SHOOT ANDY!! SHOOT! SHOOT!".

Diaz vs. Gamburyan- I felt so bad for Manny. He was well on his way to winning before that unfortunate injury. I wanted Diaz to win but he'd better thank his lucky stars Manny got hurt. Hated to see it end that way.

How funny was the post-fight interview when Diaz talked shit on the show/living in the house and how the UFC needs to show more respect to his brother Nick? The look on Dana's face was priceless.


Penn vs. Pulver- I think we all saw this coming. Pulver put up a good fight but he was clearly outmatched. However, I will look forward to Jens' 145-lb fights, he could do some damage there.

Penn proved that when he's in shape, he's one of the best pound-for-pound fighters in the world. I really hope he doesn't bump up to 170 again. He could hold the belt for a long time at 155.

Overall I thought it was a great card and I can't fucking wait for UFC 73.

[Kakutogi]

BJ dominated the shit out of Pulver, but I don't think it's fair to say that is evidence that his conditioning is truly better than ever. It was the first round and Pulver didn't really do much else but absorb punishment.

[Tucker Max]

Garcia v. Berube: I wish this had been on TV--anyone have a link to this? Watching that assmouth get fucked up would be sweet.

Huerta vs. Evans - Very impressed by Evans, his base was excellent and he won that first round. Huerta clearly took him lightly and you could see he cheated on his cardio and was gassed at the end of that first round. But thats the mark the a champion: Winning when you don't have your best stuff. They said Huerta is going to start training with Randy in Vegas. If so, I think he has to be a favorite to take the 155 belt at some point.

Maynard vs. Emerson How weird was that fight. Good call by the refs and good call by Rogan. They were both out. Emerson got lucky, Maynard was on track to win an easy decision.

Lauzon vs. Melendez: OK, I am with Bunny on this: Why the fuck did Lauzon keep taking Melendez' back, and then not sink the rear naked? It was the weirdest thing. I know in the interview Lauzon said that he didn't want Melendez to reverse, but shit man--THAT IS WHY YOU SINK IN YOUR HOOKS AND PINCH YOUR KNEES. I am seriously baffled by his strategy there. Can someone who knows jitz better please explain what Lauzon was thinking, and if it was in fact a good strategy? Gylius, gb, someone help me out here.

Diaz vs. Gamburyan: Well, this went exactly like we all thought it would: To the ground, Manny on top defending and dropping punches, and Diaz going fro submissions and getting hit. Manny clearly won the first round, and was going to win that fight if he hadn't blow out his shoulder. That's part of fighting, but what killed me was the way Nate acted. He fucking strutted around like he had beaten Manny. He didn't. He was the beneficiary of blind luck, and not like the type of luck of having a wild punch land, but a random injury that he didn't even cause. At least Rob Emerson was apologetic, and recognized that their result was kinda bullshit--Nate acted like he has beaten Manny. Bullshit in my opinion.

Penn vs. Pulver: OK, am I crazy, or did BJ let that arm bar and triangle go, so he could beat on Jens more? Seriously, how does the first American to ever win worlds in BJJ, let a COMPLETELY SUNK IN triangle go on a guy who is smaller and less skilled then he is? Again, can a BJJ guy who knows more than me comment on this? Do you agree or am I missing something? I just watched the fight again, and BJ had his ankle under his knee, toes pointed upwards, and Jens was on his knees. BJ was ust dropping elbows on his head, and then let him go. I swear to god he wanted to hurt Jens more.

[redskyline56]

I was screaming at the television when Maynard was trying to say he was still conscious and just rolled over. But he was obviously out of his mind at the time after being pulled down on his head so hard. I'm glad Joe Rogan called his bullshit. He's making himself look like an idiot by saying he wasn't blacked out after he hit the ground, he still stuck to it in his post fight interview.

Penn should definitely stick at 155. Having his name in that class and making a title run at Sherk will bring much more attention to the competition in the lightweight division. I was very impressed by his conditioning in this fight. Being in such good shape made his technique look even more impressive.

[Tucker Max]

Penn should definitely stick at 155. Having his name in that class and making a title run at Sherk will bring much more attention to the competition in the lightweight division. I was very impressed by his conditioning in this fight. Being in such good shape made his technique look even more impressive.

Oh yeah--how fucked up would 170 be if you add in BJ Penn??? Holy shit. He throws a monkey wrench in the whole thing. I agree he should stick at 155, win the belt, then maybe move up in a year when the division is a bit more settled.

[brooks211]

Penn vs. Pulver: OK, am I crazy, or did BJ let that arm bar and triangle go, so he could beat on Jens more? Seriously, how does the first American to ever win worlds in BJJ, let a COMPLETELY SUNK IN triangle go on a guy who is smaller and less skilled then he is? Again, can a BJJ guy who knows more than me comment on this? Do you agree or am I missing something? I just watched the fight again, and BJ had his ankle under his knee, toes pointed upwards, and Jens was on his knees. BJ was ust dropping elbows on his head, and then let him go. I swear to god he wanted to hurt Jens more.

It didn't look like BJ had Jens left arm trapped under his chin- when you sink in a triangle you use the opponent's own arm to choke them (the triangle with the legs is only half of it) and BJ wasn't able to do that. Ideally you want to have the other guy's arm extended with his bicep tucked under his chin. It's hard to tell from the camera angle (they both roll to the side), but it looked to me like Jens was using his left arm to posture up, keeping a lot of space between his arm and his neck, preventing BJ from sinking in the choke.

[redshift]

It didn't look like BJ had Jens left arm trapped under his chin- when you sink in a triangle you use the opponent's own arm to choke them (the triangle with the legs is only half of it) and BJ wasn't able to do that. Ideally you want to have the other guy's arm extended with his bicep tucked under his chin. It's hard to tell from the camera angle (they both roll to the side), but it looked to me like Jens was using his left arm to posture up, keeping a lot of space between his arm and his neck, preventing BJ from sinking in the choke.


I think that's part of it, the other part is that if you look closely his left leg wasn't parallel to Pulver's shoulders, it was at an angle going down his back. This prevents you from using your right leg as effectively to help push the arm under the neck and also let Jens posture up to get out.

[Kakutogi]

Penn vs. Pulver: OK, am I crazy, or did BJ let that arm bar and triangle go, so he could beat on Jens more? Seriously, how does the first American to ever win worlds in BJJ, let a COMPLETELY SUNK IN triangle go on a guy who is smaller and less skilled then he is? Again, can a BJJ guy who knows more than me comment on this? Do you agree or am I missing something? I just watched the fight again, and BJ had his ankle under his knee, toes pointed upwards, and Jens was on his knees. BJ was ust dropping elbows on his head, and then let him go. I swear to god he wanted to hurt Jens more.

I thought he let the armbar go too. I'd have to look at it again, but i vaguely remember Jens's head not being trapped under BJ's calf. As far as the triangle goes, if you throw your hips up, and pull his head down, if you are at the correct angle, where the victim's arm is is not necessary (but if it is in the right position, it will be easier to finish). Either way, I do think BJ had the idea of beating down Pulver in mind rather than submitting him. Even Pulver said at the end something like "He didn't go for the quick submission, he really layed it on me."

[Napa]

Lauzon vs. Melendez: OK, I am with Bunny on this: Why the fuck did Lauzon keep taking Melendez' back, and then not sink the rear naked? It was the weirdest thing. I know in the interview Lauzon said that he didn't want Melendez to reverse, but shit man--THAT IS WHY YOU SINK IN YOUR HOOKS AND PINCH YOUR KNEES. I am seriously baffled by his strategy there. Can someone who knows jitz better please explain what Lauzon was thinking, and if it was in fact a good strategy? Gylius, gb, someone help me out here.


I would like to preface this by saying that I got very little jit-jitsu experience most of what I will be saying comes from observation.

Every time Joe Lauzon mounted Melendez, Melendez would spin giving Joe Lauzon his back. Once they got into this position Melendez would look to grab one of Joe Lauzon’s hand, arm, or glove to prevent getting choked out. He was willing to commit to this to the extend that he was taking shots without putting up much of a defense. Once, Melendez got a good hold of his arm/hand he would turn his body towards that side (which put him in joe guard). This prevents Joe Lauzon from switching from back side to mount position. Close to the end of the fight when Joe Lauzon had Melendez back, Joe did the same thing BJ Penn did to finish his fight. He trapped one of Melendez arms with his legs, he just happen to be unfortunate that he was up against the fence and could not extend himself in order to sink in the rear naked choke properly. Once Melendez manage to escape and reverse position Joe Lauzon had seen this done before and countered with a triangle choke.

In summary, Melendez has solid back defense.

Brought to you by RapidShare:
Joe Lauzon vs Brandon Melendez (http://rapidshare.com/files/39002344/Joe.Lauzon.vs.Brandon.Melendez.avi)
Gray Maynard vs Robert Emerson: (http://rapidshare.com/files/39000442/Gray.Maynard.vs.Robert.Emerson.avi)
Roger Huerta vs Douglas Evan (http://rapidshare.com/files/38999589/Roger.Huerta.vs.Douglas.Evans.avi)
Nathan Diaz vs Manvel Gamburyan (http://rapidshare.com/files/39005531/Nathan.Diaz.vs.Manvel.Gamburyan.avi)
Thales Leites vs. Floyd Sword (http://rapidshare.com/files/38999861/Thales.Leites.vs.Floyd.Sword.avi)

[Gylius]

Lauzon vs. Melendez: OK, I am with Bunny on this: Why the fuck did Lauzon keep taking Melendez' back, and then not sink the rear naked? It was the weirdest thing. I know in the interview Lauzon said that he didn't want Melendez to reverse, but shit man--THAT IS WHY YOU SINK IN YOUR HOOKS AND PINCH YOUR KNEES. I am seriously baffled by his strategy there. Can someone who knows jitz better please explain what Lauzon was thinking, and if it was in fact a good strategy? Gylius, gb, someone help me out here.

I think what it came down to was that Melendez was really good at not getting submitted from the back. Lauzon was having trouble getting under the chin because Melendez did a number of things right. First, he kept his chin down the entire time. Second, he would grab onto the gloves, pull the arm down and trap it under his own arm. Those two things were stopping Lauzon from getting any kind of choke going. Sure, Melendez wasn't going to win the fight, but he wasn't getting finished either so I guess that's something. I bet Lauzon wanted to finish it from somewhere else, since he was walking all over him anyway.

Penn vs. Pulver: OK, am I crazy, or did BJ let that arm bar and triangle go, so he could beat on Jens more? Seriously, how does the first American to ever win worlds in BJJ, let a COMPLETELY SUNK IN triangle go on a guy who is smaller and less skilled then he is? Again, can a BJJ guy who knows more than me comment on this? Do you agree or am I missing something? I just watched the fight again, and BJ had his ankle under his knee, toes pointed upwards, and Jens was on his knees. BJ was ust dropping elbows on his head, and then let him go. I swear to god he wanted to hurt Jens more.

BJ may have been able to finish the armbar, but it would have been sloppy at best. His legs weren't in the best position and there was a good chance that had he gone for it Jens would have pulled his arm out and ended up on top (he did anyway, but into the triangle). The triangle looked like he could have finished it, if he really wanted it. But I'm reasonably convinced BJ did want to beat his ass some more. He was all over Jens so I think he was going to enjoy hurting him some more.

[Bizznatch]

Pulver's got some post fight comments up on Sherdog where he runs through being caught in the triangle. He basically said that it wasn't sunk and he was able to create enough space by posturing up.

http://www.sherdog.com/videos/videos.asp?v_id=1204

[redskyline56]

Oh yeah--how fucked up would 170 be if you add in BJ Penn??? Holy shit. He throws a monkey wrench in the whole thing. I agree he should stick at 155, win the belt, then maybe move up in a year when the division is a bit more settled.

I couldn't agree more. Welterweight has SO many contenders and deserving guys of a shot, he might as well go take over the lightweight division in the mean time. If he made a run back at the 170 belt now he'd have to wait in line behind a long ass list of fighters.

With such a dominating performance reminding us of the BJ Penn of old I can't help but be reminded of him thinking he could just sneak by on his technique without 'training professionally.' I just hope he doesn't get burnt out again like he said and drop a title shot against someone he should beat. Here's the question I have: Who could beat Penn(at 155) when he's at his absolute best?

[garbanzobean]

I think what it came down to was that Melendez was really good at not getting submitted from the back. Lauzon was having trouble getting under the chin because Melendez did a number of things right. First, he kept his chin down the entire time. Second, he would grab onto the gloves, pull the arm down and trap it under his own arm. Those two things were stopping Lauzon from getting any kind of choke going. Sure, Melendez wasn't going to win the fight, but he wasn't getting finished either so I guess that's something. I bet Lauzon wanted to finish it from somewhere else, since he was walking all over him anyway.I agree with Gylius. Melendez has pretty good RNC defense, and Joe probably didn't want to waste the energy and possibly get reversed when he was winning the fight with panache. If I get a chance, I guess I can try to remember to ask Joe, though. BJ may have been able to finish the armbar, but it would have been sloppy at best. His legs weren't in the best position and there was a good chance that had he gone for it Jens would have pulled his arm out and ended up on top (he did anyway, but into the triangle). The triangle looked like he could have finished it, if he really wanted it. But I'm reasonably convinced BJ did want to beat his ass some more. He was all over Jens so I think he was going to enjoy hurting him some more.Pulver even said after the fight that Penn could have finished him earlier, but really seemed like he wanted to put on a clinic.

[NJCarder]

I think Sherk COULD beat BJ Penn. I don't think he would but I think he could. Anyone that can wrestle like Sherk can, can at least blanket someone for the length of a fight. That being said I think BJ would either beat him standing up or submit him on the ground. Sherk would have to position himself perfectly all fight long just to win by a boring Lay N Pray decision.

[Shua]

Who could beat Penn(at 155) when he's at his absolute best?

When he is at his absolute best I don't think there is anyone at 155 or 170 that can beat him. The BJ that showed up for a couple of his losses could be beat by Hughes, GSP, Karo and maybe a few other guys.

That said I really hope that BJ sticks around for at least 2 or 3 fights and takes the 155 belt. Then moves back to 170 once it has settled a little and avenge the Hughes and GSP losses and takes that belt.

And I agree with Bizznatch. A potential Karo vs. BJ fight is an amazing matchup. Karo is the only guy at 170 that I wouldn't be shocked if he beat BJ if the BJ we saw last night shows up. Just a great matchup for a fight.

[Tucker Max]

And I agree with Bizznatch. A potential Karo vs. BJ fight is an amazing matchup. Karo is the only guy at 170 that I wouldn't be shocked if he beat BJ if the BJ we saw last night shows up. Just a great matchup for a fight.

A motivated BJ versus a motivate Karo would be amazing. A fucking war. You know neither are getting submitted unless something incredible happens, so its going to be who wants it more and who's stand up is better. What a great matchup. What about BJ versus Kos? That is super interesting also. Man, if he keeps his motivation up, I am so excited about the match-up possibilities.

And what about the Pulver vs Faber match up? Faber is no fucking joke, he is killing everyone at 145. Its going to be awesome to see that fight.

[Il Duce]

What about BJ versus Kos? That is super interesting also. Man, if he keeps his motivation up, I am so excited about the match-up possibilities.



I'd say the same thing about Kos as NJCarder said about Sherk. He could beat BJ if he fought an absolutely perfect fight. While Kos's hands have vastly improved, BJ's are awesome. Rogan said it last night, his striking gets overlooked cause he's so unbelievable on the ground. Kos would have to smother him on top the whole fight. Barring stupid luck, Kos won't be knocking BJ out, and I'm pretty sure a submission is out of the question. He might get a ground and pound TKO, but I think a lay and pray decision would be Kos's best bet in that matchup.

[Shua]

A motivated BJ versus a motivate Karo would be amazing. A fucking war. You know neither are getting submitted unless something incredible happens, so its going to be who wants it more and who's stand up is better. What a great matchup. What about BJ versus Kos? That is super interesting also. Man, if he keeps his motivation up, I am so excited about the match-up possibilities.

And what about the Pulver vs Faber match up? Faber is no fucking joke, he is killing everyone at 145. Its going to be awesome to see that fight.

I told Bizznatch in a rep that I can't wait for that fight. I don't know who I would favor in that. Off the top of my head without really doing any evaluation I think Faber might be slight favorite but damn that would be an interesting fight.

That is exactly why I would love to see a fight between Karo and BJ. It would be a fucking war. I think BJ has a little advantage in the stand up but with Karo's throws if he can go the distance he could get a decision and you know it would be an active fight. I don't see how it wouldn't be one of the fights of the year if it happens.

As far as Kos vs. BJ, I am not sure how interested in that I would be. I am not sold on Kos yet. I need to see him against a few more top notch guys. You can't question his wrestling. Pound for Pound he is one of the best in MMA. But his boxing is suspect to me. Against Diego he had his chin hanging out the whole time. Against BJ he would get knocked out very quickly doing that. And he still needs more work on his submission game. I don't think it is near good enough to stop BJ from submitting him. I have no doubt that Kos could get BJ down but would he really want to. And if stays standing BJ owns that battle too.

It is a nightmare matchup for him because the one thing he does great would work into BJ's biggest strength. Look what BJ did to Hughes on the ground. Hughes may not be quite as good of a wrestler as Kos but his submission game is as good as almost anyone at 170 minus a couple strictly BJJ guys. He is on par with a BJJ black belt. And BJ basically did whatever he wanted in both fights before his injury. I just don't think Kos could eke out a lay n pray victory against BJ yet. And if he goes for a ground and pound victory he is going to get caught in a submission. There is no way he doesn't leave an arm out or get caught in a triangle or get his back taken and choked out if he is active. No way. BJ is just too good. 3 years from now I might think differently but right now I think Kos has a ways to go. It is just not a good match up for Kos.

[AnotherName]

I think Sherk COULD beat BJ Penn. I don't think he would but I think he could.

While anything CAN happen, I really don't think Sherk is any match for a motivated Penn. Sherk is pretty much a mini, less experienced Matt Hughes, and we all know how Penn/Hughes I and II turned out. Barring a freak injury or Penn losing his motivation, Sherk, good as he is, should not even make it to the decision.

The real question is: Will Bj make the smart decision and stay motivated to win? Sometimes I think he fights at 170 because he is so lazy he just doesn't want to manage his weight. There are a lot of guys in every sport with incredible talent but just no will to put in the work to reach the hall of fame level, I really hope Bj doesn't end up in that position.

[KIMaster]

The only guy who I think has any chance at beating BJ Penn at 155 pounds is Takanori Gomi who, ironically enough, suffers from many of the same motivation problems Penn does.

(I realize BJJ guys are a problem for Gomi, but he has superior striking plus the great wrestling to defend at least some of Penn's takedown attempts)

[TheLittlestRanger]

I was thinking about this after the fight and ufcjunkie.com confirmed it for me: Dana didn't give Manny a consolation contract like they gave Ed Herman or Bonnar, is it just me or does that seem a little fucked up?

Manny had that first round dominated before he got hurt and looked well on his way to winning that fight.

[PJR808]

I was thinking about this after the fight and ufcjunkie.com confirmed it for me: Dana didn't give Manny a consolation contract like they gave Ed Herman or Bonnar, is it just me or does that seem a little fucked up?

Manny had that first round dominated before he got hurt and looked well on his way to winning that fight.

Yea, but I'm certain we will see Manny again some time soon as long as he can get his shoulder problem worked out. I think the Bonnar and Ed Herman situations both involved some need too. I don't think Herman or Bonnar had much money. I don't think Manny is in quite the same situation.

[ODEN]

That is exactly why I would love to see a fight between Karo and BJ. It would be a fucking war. I think BJ has a little advantage in the stand up but with Karo's throws if he can go the distance he could get a decision and you know it would be an active fight. I don't see how it wouldn't be one of the fights of the year if it happens.



When you look back at Karo v. Diego and what a battle that fight was I think that is what a Karo v. BJ match up would look like. I think it would be one hell of a battle, Karo using throws and tons of scrambling on the ground. The stand up would be sick as well. In the end though I think a Karo-BJ battle would turn out the same way the match against Diego turned out, if not ending sooner with a BJ stand up knock out.